The Appeal Of Dick/Babs

[Rac7d*]

The staff writers once for Titans said DickKori is what they are going for. The writers made it clear multiple forms Babs wasn't endgame

Yeah after that last season we have really deviated from starfire, she is barely resembles her at this point, with her no flying blue glow lantern powers. She is Kory in name only.

[Godlike13]

Dick and Babs were together in Future State.

[Confuzzled]

Batman Beyond had Bruce refer to Talia as the one. In B:TAS, Selina was a love interest for a few episodes but I'd argue the episodes with Talia/Ra's were more 'epic' for lack of better word

When Terry got his heart broken by Melanie/Ten though, it was "a woman named Selina Kyle" that Bruce told him about so...

I don't see how epicness has anything to do with "The One" as Ra's is a more globe spanning, high stakes villain than Catwoman. In the DCAU, Talia was always in the shadow of Ra's, less a character herself and more of a weapon of his, quite literally in Batman Beyond.

[SiegePerilous02]

Within BTAS/TNBA itself, Selina always seemed like a bigger deal than Talia. The DCAU staff didn't seem to view Bruce as having a true love, or at least they weren't always on the same page depending on the story they were telling. Maybe Talia being called "the One" in Beyond should be taken with a grain of salt, because they didn't think of Bats/WW yet and that ended up being way more popular than Bats/Talia

[AmiMizuno]

The issue also is will this even stick ? Future state and infinity frontier are both a merge of idea within 5G. Majority of the heroes are replaced and are given to new heroes. But it's temporary. So the question really is will this stick. Because Dc could have gotten them
Married several before new 52 happened. So there is a question even if they are together will it stick in the next reboot

We also have the fact that Dc and WBs already consider him a low importance so this gives them a reason to cancel his book if he is with Babs. He had the titans but could easily be a bye thing. You keep forgetting that this relationship can really be bad changes if Dick and Babs get together because Dc doesn't consider him important. This is why there is rarely crossover and this also means there will never be a reason to get crossovers when you can just get the Batfam. No Wally or Dick or anyone else other than the Batfam. You to see it from that view. Why have anyone else when they can just always have the Batfam like they keep doing now?

While I doubt they will fully get rid of DickKori due to things like Titans and the elsewheres. I Helena is also mentioned in a few elsewhere. So we we can have other love interested. Wish they do more the marriage life that Dick had with Babs in Conversage. They really could have use kept with that. I feel they will change and already have that he ever loved her and she and the titans importance will always be lower and lower. They already keep saying it was lust and not love. Which is not how Dick has ever been. This I fear that they just going to keep cutting him from the titans.

Dc could try putting effort to help Titans but they don't want to because that means actually 100% putting actually work into showing Dick's importance to Titans. They keep wanting them to fail. If DickBabs official happens he offical loses any being a hero since he has always been a sidekick when having him in Batbooks. Is that what you all want him always being a sidekick ?

Overall I need to stop overthinking and being this overall reacting two fictional characters it s that Dc has overall mistreated them and how bad they treat Dick Grayson. Maybe it will be different maybe not. But right now after what happened I doubt it. Look how often close they are only to just jump off. So I'm not sure not only that but I don't know if future state and infinity frontier will stick. They now often Dc rebooted. It's just even if Tom does a good job who knows what will happen after he leaves or if Dc reboots


Hopefully this will be the last time. Because I don't hate them fully just that Dc has done them wrong and I'm pissed . So I'm overall thinking and really need to let go. And just accept elsewhere for other ships

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

Ok I'll look for that later but give it some context cause I find really weird if DC wants Bard/Barbara as a real thing on future why would them allow writters to just split them up off-screen and have Babs and Dick back together as a couple ?
About Todd yeah sure Geoff Johns is one of the few persons whos actually into this couple but even he himself knows it's just a crackship with no chance at all
In Batman:Eternal Barbara only starts thinking of Jason as a potential romantic partner after she sees a glimpse of Dick in him which makes Jason mad
In Three Jokers their romance is pretty much one-sided the whole time, they kissed but barbara makes it clear to the very end she's not into Jason, then there's his letter going to trash can at end pretty much symbolizing their relationship ain't going nowhere
About Cecil's run it's just a messy fanfic when it comes to romance, most of it has Dick portrayed as the childhood/first love who happens to be a real jerk only going after Barbara for sex until she meets a better guy and goes for him, Cecil herself admitted it on her twitter lol
Again Cecil herself said on her blog it was her choice to write that dickbabs story on death metal so it was no "editorial push" it's pretty much an apologise after everyone was calling her out on how OOC Barbara was acting towards Dick in #50 literally victim blaming Dick only to push Bard x barbara

The death metal thing was a clear mockery and quite disrespectful to both characters.

why you say that ? It's literally one of the few times cecil gets Dick's character right lol

What build up did dick babs have to a marriage since N52 started? None

Aside from them being constantly portrayed as each other's soulmate ?

Thanks for letting me know Cecil said that. I read one part of something she said and I kinda went with it because I did love the fact she was trying to pay homage to pre crisis babs. But now hearing that she actually just wanted to point to dick babs because it’s kinda contradictory. You can’t pay homage to a time period where Babs was significantly different and then end it with a different version. In a way, batgirl at the end of her rebrith run when she did call out dick, was not OOC because she has done that multiple times in the past pre and post crisis. I mean yeha itÂ’s one thing if the shippers complain, it’s another when actual fans complain. And I feel like most people who did complain about her run were mainly Dick Babs shippers because the main complaint was about Babs and Jason Bard. And using the horribly retconned and bad version of the character as a way to further bash the run. But Cecil was using pre crisis as a blueprint, where Jason Bard was upstanding and did a lot for the batfamily. And then to further the complaints about Bea and Dick, she made Bea and Jason be friends knowing that people are complaining about Jason being a terrorist. Do you see what I mean? The batgirl run was fine for what it was really, if you are a fan of pre-crisis babs, Cecil run was pretty ok and nicely done but if you try to look at it through the lenses of N52 and post crisis, and shipping Dick Babs, it becomes a convoluted mess where Babs never really gets to grow because silver age babs is significantly different from how she is now which is what makes the run kind of polarizing. I think had Cecil kept the pre-crisis homage and not try to do the whole apology to dick babs shippers a thing, we could have had a nice set up for batgirl using her pre-crisis self. Something to think about more than to criticize.

I mean Geoff Johns actually has a good history of weaving together ideas over time that leads into something greater. It’s why he is so revered for his Aquaman and Green Lantern stuff. In fact, Three Jokers had some content that included content from his previous work. Is he amazing at everything? No. But what Geoff is good at, he often times excels. Thats why I believe Jason and Babs actually have a better less toxic build up because starting from Batman eternal and onward, we have solid and heart warming moments between the two that actually makes for some great relationship development and that is done with minimal retcons. Babs and I believe Jason were also single during those times as well. I think it’s one thing to dislike Jason and Babs being together because there is nothing there to go off of and it’s random, but it’s another to not support it because you deem it a crack ship because dick babs is superior. Jason and Babs are not perfect, but they do have solid development together over time that hints at a possible future together. Can’t deny that its there. Babs actually wanted a relationship with Jason in Batman eternal I believe but he turned her down because he felt he was inferior to Dick. It was Jason who turned Babs down. They have some real ideologies that are relatable that both and work through together. It’s clear Jason likes and respects Babs and Babs in return does really genuine like Jason and finds him comforting. It’s just at this point, one has to decide to either see where it actually goes or not. Just don’t dislike Jason and Babs because you’re a dick babs shipper you know?

I called death metal disrespectful because Dick and Babs were actually fighting and not getting along. Contrary to popular belief, just because two people argue, doesnÂ’t mean itÂ’s a lovers spat. Some arguments are quite serious and shouldn’t be taken so lightly because you ship the two people involved. Regardless of how you view it, I donÂ’t think it was appropriate for their heated argument to be interrupted because Batman thought they were having a couple moment. They werent, they were arguing over something that should have ended with dick recognizing his worth and refusing to chase anyone. I hate that Dick has to win Babs back, this isn’t the first time it has happened either. Dick shouldn’t have to prove anything to Babs and Babs needs to understand that the things Dick did as Ric can’t not be held against him. It was a terrible situation to be in. And the fact that Babs even was mad at Dick for what he went through is why I Donny ship them Because its also 100% something Babs would be upset about canonically speaking (she also got mad at Bard for not being there for her when she got shot, she gets mad at dick for other women even breathing next to him, she broke off her engagement with dick because she thought he needed to grow more, got upset at Dick for being worried about her becoming batgirl again and actually fought him, told Dick to leave her alone forever and when he did and moved to bludhaven, she got ads at him and accused him of running away, told him that her friends relationship problems were more important that things he was going through, ect ect) Batman also doesn’t have credentials to marry people (I’m going in on a limb here) lol Dick and Babs were not married in Death Metal. It was a gag moment to please the shippers and it worked.

What Cecil got right about Babs was her personality and way she actually does treat Dick historically in canon. The call backs to her time as a congresswoman and her relationship with Bard was nice. While it’s not something that is popular with dick Babs shippers, the fact of the matter is, Babs in Cecil’s run wasn’t totally OOC at all and only had some minor moments that were (like Babs forgiving Jason for doing the absolute minimal). If you compare Dick Babs from post crisis - pre 52 then the beginning of N52, (not mentioning pre crisis because pre crisis Babs was with Jason majority of the time) her treatment of Dick is not OOC. In death metal, this why I found it jarring and depreciating for Dicks character who basically was devalued and turned into something he isn’t just to make Babs seem better and throw the true issue under the rug as an apology to Dick Babs shippers. Because Dick canonically would never chase anyone or let anyone talk to him the way Babs does. It’s only Babs that gets away with it which makes Dick Babs as a couple even worse because Dick as a character is retconned every time he is with Babs. It’s one thing to retcon at the beginning of the run but anytime Dick is with Babs, his characterization takes a nose dive to a point where he isn’t even Dick Grayson anymore but instead a poor man’s version who caters only to batfam and shippers.

Dick saying Babs is his soulmate is literally just filler content. I mean if we take that as true, Kory is also the love of his life, Shawn was the only person who understood him, He loved Bea more than anything in the world, and Helena was someone who he could actually see a future with. Lol Dick has said many things to many women depending on the writer. Literally all his girlfriends have been considered his soul mates. Babs isn’t special on that front.

[Spideyvinnegar]

Thanks for letting me know Cecil said that. I read one part of something she said and I kinda went with it because I did love the fact she was trying to pay homage to pre crisis babs. But now hearing that she actually just wanted to point to dick babs because it’s kinda contradictory. You can’t pay homage to a time period where Babs was significantly different and then end it with a different version. In a way, batgirl at the end of her rebrith run when she did call out dick, was not OOC because she has done that multiple times in the past pre and post crisis. I mean yeha itÂ’s one thing if the shippers complain, it’s another when actual fans complain. And I feel like most people who did complain about her run were mainly Dick Babs shippers because the main complaint was about Babs and Jason Bard. And using the horribly retconned and bad version of the character as a way to further bash the run. But Cecil was using pre crisis as a blueprint, where Jason Bard was upstanding and did a lot for the batfamily. And then to further the complaints about Bea and Dick, she made Bea and Jason be friends knowing that people are complaining about Jason being a terrorist. Do you see what I mean? The batgirl run was fine for what it was really, if you are a fan of pre-crisis babs, Cecil run was pretty ok and nicely done but if you try to look at it through the lenses of N52 and post crisis, and shipping Dick Babs, it becomes a convoluted mess where Babs never really gets to grow because silver age babs is significantly different from how she is now which is what makes the run kind of polarizing. I think had Cecil kept the pre-crisis homage and not try to do the whole apology to dick babs shippers a thing, we could have had a nice set up for batgirl using her pre-crisis self. Something to think about more than to criticize.

I mean Geoff Johns actually has a good history of weaving together ideas over time that leads into something greater. It’s why he is so revered for his Aquaman and Green Lantern stuff. In fact, Three Jokers had some content that included content from his previous work. Is he amazing at everything? No. But what Geoff is good at, he often times excels. Thats why I believe Jason and Babs actually have a better less toxic build up because starting from Batman eternal and onward, we have solid and heart warming moments between the two that actually makes for some great relationship development and that is done with minimal retcons. Babs and I believe Jason were also single during those times as well. I think it’s one thing to dislike Jason and Babs being together because there is nothing there to go off of and it’s random, but it’s another to not support it because you deem it a crack ship because dick babs is superior. Jason and Babs are not perfect, but they do have solid development together over time that hints at a possible future together. Can’t deny that its there. Babs actually wanted a relationship with Jason in Batman eternal I believe but he turned her down because he felt he was inferior to Dick. It was Jason who turned Babs down. They have some real ideologies that are relatable that both and work through together. It’s clear Jason likes and respects Babs and Babs in return does really genuine like Jason and finds him comforting. It’s just at this point, one has to decide to either see where it actually goes or not. Just don’t dislike Jason and Babs because you’re a dick babs shipper you know?

I called death metal disrespectful because Dick and Babs were actually fighting and not getting along. Contrary to popular belief, just because two people argue, doesnÂ’t mean itÂ’s a lovers spat. Some arguments are quite serious and shouldn’t be taken so lightly because you ship the two people involved. Regardless of how you view it, I donÂ’t think it was appropriate for their heated argument to be interrupted because Batman thought they were having a couple moment. They werent, they were arguing over something that should have ended with dick recognizing his worth and refusing to chase anyone. I hate that Dick has to win Babs back, this isn’t the first time it has happened either. Dick shouldn’t have to prove anything to Babs and Babs needs to understand that the things Dick did as Ric can’t not be held against him. It was a terrible situation to be in. And the fact that Babs even was mad at Dick for what he went through is why I Donny ship them Because its also 100% something Babs would be upset about canonically speaking (she also got mad at Bard for not being there for her when she got shot, she gets mad at dick for other women even breathing next to him, she broke off her engagement with dick because she thought he needed to grow more, got upset at Dick for being worried about her becoming batgirl again and actually fought him, told Dick to leave her alone forever and when he did and moved to bludhaven, she got ads at him and accused him of running away, told him that her friends relationship problems were more important that things he was going through, ect ect) Batman also doesn’t have credentials to marry people (I’m going in on a limb here) lol Dick and Babs were not married in Death Metal. It was a gag moment to please the shippers and it worked.

What Cecil got right about Babs was her personality and way she actually does treat Dick historically in canon. The call backs to her time as a congresswoman and her relationship with Bard was nice. While it’s not something that is popular with dick Babs shippers, the fact of the matter is, Babs in Cecil’s run wasn’t totally OOC at all and only had some minor moments that were (like Babs forgiving Jason for doing the absolute minimal). If you compare Dick Babs from post crisis - pre 52 then the beginning of N52, (not mentioning pre crisis because pre crisis Babs was with Jason majority of the time) her treatment of Dick is not OOC. In death metal, this why I found it jarring and depreciating for Dicks character who basically was devalued and turned into something he isn’t just to make Babs seem better and throw the true issue under the rug as an apology to Dick Babs shippers. Because Dick canonically would never chase anyone or let anyone talk to him the way Babs does. It’s only Babs that gets away with it which makes Dick Babs as a couple even worse because Dick as a character is retconned every time he is with Babs. It’s one thing to retcon at the beginning of the run but anytime Dick is with Babs, his characterization takes a nose dive to a point where he isn’t even Dick Grayson anymore but instead a poor man’s version who caters only to batfam and shippers.

Dick saying Babs is his soulmate is literally just filler content. I mean if we take that as true, Kory is also the love of his life, Shawn was the only person who understood him, He loved Bea more than anything in the world, and Helena was someone who he could actually see a future with. Lol Dick has said many things to many women depending on the writer. Literally all his girlfriends have been considered his soul mates. Babs isn’t special on that front.

(Could you try making your posts a bit shorter, most of it you just ends up repeating yourself all over again and ends up in an unnecessarily long post)
About Cecil's please stop treating pre-crisis Barbara as some kind of cold and evil person who sees her best friend in his worst and starts victim blaming him for getting a bullet in his brain
I think you didn't even read it because that run's problems goes really beyond dickbabs, for real there's just too many problems in the way she portrays barbara, it's inconsistent and she just doesn't seems to find her way into Barbara's character through the whole run, you keep saying only dickbabs fans didn't like it like theres not a lot of dickbabs content there and Barbara fandom in general still didn't like at all because she kept portraying Barbara as some kind of fangirl who Dick can easily fool around
Most of her run just feels like a inconsistent fanfic and thats the problem
Again you keep pushing Jason Todd with Barbara just because you wants her out of the way, yeah Geoff messed around with the possibility of this ship but in both stories it ends symbolizing they just aren't meant to be a thing
In Batman: eternal Barbara only starts considering an actual relationship with Jason after he starts resembling her of Dick, Jason realizes that get mad and rejects her, Barbara doesn't even tries to deny it because she knows it's true
In Three Jokers the whole thing is one-sided from Jason and in the end his letter goes to trash can pretty much symbolizing their relationship not going anywhere
So in summary yeah they may have a good build up as friends getting closer over a similar trauma but it doesn't works romantically and Geoff himself admits it
Also pretty ironic you keeps calling everything related to dickbabs as fanfic still uses THREE JOKERS as canon material lol
(Sorry I don't feel like reading your whole post so after that I just jumped right to the end)
Yeah we all know Dick's fame as a womanizer however the only one who has been constantly portrayed by various authors as his true soulmate is still Babs

[Godlike13]

Ric was a pos, and ended in a way that they made it frustrating clear that Ric and Dick were not separate people with different wants. Dick resented everyone for bringing him back. That is the narrative they let Ric's writers perpetuate. So it was fair game to hold Ric against Dick, cause according to Ric's writers at the end Ric was still Dick, and the person Dick wanted to be. Also understand Ric's writers used Babs terribly. They used her as this sudo-antagonist tether from his past and fan surrogate for them to have him reject and criticize to push their tone deaf agendas. Following the theme of that run. Cecil's scene with Dick wasn't just about the characters, but his creators and how they were using her character.

When it comes to Jason and Babs. What build up is there. Batman: Eternal relationship was predicated on her history with Dick, the build up was well Dick's not around anymore so i guess she'll throw herself at the next closest lookalike. It was an awful and rather tasteless use of Babs that wasn't flattering for either character. And Three Jokers was just odd. Cause there is no real buildup or romantic history with the characters, there was no courting period or years of flirtation, they had a moment over a shared tragedy, and next thing Jason is professing his undying love. Honestly it was probably the silliest thing out of 3 Jokers. I get the idea Johns wanted to play with, but the actual execution just made it super weird. Imagine kissing someone then a day later they are basically proposing lol.

[Rac7d*]

I spy two Valentine’s
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