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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think my issue with Dick/Kory as it was written in the Perez days and a year or so beyond his departure (I don't have much interest beyond that) is that it seemed Dick was getting more out of it than her. She has to coax him out of his shell and get him more in tune with his emotions, which is what he needs and is an important part of his growth, but she has to put up with his coldness until that point and it often makes her feel belittled even when he doesn't mean to. His trying to reign her in makes it seem like the relationship would be stifling to her. Donna in her own way tries to help get Kory to show more restraint, but her approaches as a friend/"sister" come across better to me because Donna is more emotionally stable for the most part in NTT than Dick is. It comes across as a very interesting relationship if I read it as one with a built-in expiration date, but if Wolfman was writing it to be a forever romance it comes up a bit short, IMO.
    This, and I'll add that part of the issue with Kory and Dick is that the stress of their roles would eventually become an issue. Dick is used to kinda doing what he needs to, Kory works better as a team player. Babs is also an independent so she can give space to Dick when he needs it.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think my issue with Dick/Kory as it was written in the Perez days and a year or so beyond his departure (I don't have much interest beyond that) is that it seemed Dick was getting more out of it than her. She has to coax him out of his shell and get him more in tune with his emotions, which is what he needs and is an important part of his growth, but she has to put up with his coldness until that point and it often makes her feel belittled even when he doesn't mean to. His trying to reign her in makes it seem like the relationship would be stifling to her. Donna in her own way tries to help get Kory to show more restraint, but her approaches as a friend/"sister" come across better to me because Donna is more emotionally stable for the most part in NTT than Dick is. It comes across as a very interesting relationship if I read it as one with a built-in expiration date, but if Wolfman was writing it to be a forever romance it comes up a bit short, IMO.
    I think Donna is actually less emotionally stable than people give her credit for while Kory is more emotionally stable than people think.

    She has dated other people before Dick Grayson which was slowly built up over the course of the run and even though she was totally wrong in that particular scenario, she did break up with him over the Mirage thing showing that she has the temerity to break up with him in case of situations like that.

    Post Perez Wolfman was also headed towards a burn down and that would have affected the quality of story telling at the time. I think the original plan was that after the wedding went bust, Dick would help save the earth and reunite with Kory in a big epic way then the editor had to leave and Dick was back with the Bat Books.

    I don't think any relationship is going to be without problems and most of Dick/Kory's problems always felt like stuff that could be ironed out and they could get back together at a certain point.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    This, and I'll add that part of the issue with Kory and Dick is that the stress of their roles would eventually become an issue. Dick is used to kinda doing what he needs to, Kory works better as a team player. Babs is also an independent so she can give space to Dick when he needs it.
    How so? Dick has lead the Titans against Trigon and large scale alien invasions. Plus anyone who can deal with Damian and Jason on a daily basis would have cracked a long time ago.

    Babs literally spies on him with cameras. She's not the best person to ask about privacy. lol

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Babs literally spies on him with cameras. She's not the best person to ask about privacy. lol
    Well, not that this makes it any better, but spying on people and not respecting people's privacy is kinda what being Oracle is all about.

    The basic jist I'm getting from a lot of these posts here, is that either Kori helps Dick open up to his emotional side more without getting much in return or Dick helps Babs open up to her emotional side without getting much in return. I can completely see both being completely valid, which only makes me think they all need to find other people.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I think Donna is actually less emotionally stable than people give her credit for while Kory is more emotionally stable than people think.

    She has dated other people before Dick Grayson which was slowly built up over the course of the run and even though she was totally wrong in that particular scenario, she did break up with him over the Mirage thing showing that she has the temerity to break up with him in case of situations like that.

    Post Perez Wolfman was also headed towards a burn down and that would have affected the quality of story telling at the time. I think the original plan was that after the wedding went bust, Dick would help save the earth and reunite with Kory in a big epic way then the editor had to leave and Dick was back with the Bat Books.

    I don't think any relationship is going to be without problems and most of Dick/Kory's problems always felt like stuff that could be ironed out and they could get back together at a certain point.
    I definitely think Donna has moments where she cracks under the pressure of being "perfect" all the time, and Kory is more stable in other areas. But in this particular scenario, I think Donna was on the money.

    It was slowly built up, and yes Kory dated other people (I think it was just the one guy though, the one who was working for the HIVE), but even with Perez on the title I don't think any of the romances were Wolfman's strong point. Raven/Wally was SUPPOSSED to be unhealthy, but Dick/Kory and (ugh) Donna/Terry just never clicked with me as strongly as I think Wolfman intended. Clearly the former still worked for a lot of people, but as a true endgame romance it doesn't really work for me (better in the cartoon). There is also Lilith/Azrael which is hilariously awful, but I'm not too certain it was intentional on his part. Really the various combination of friendships (Dick/Donna/Wally, Vic/Gar, Raven/Donna/Kory, Raven/Joe, Vic/Raven, etc) were always stronger, perhaps because they avoided a lot of the melodrama. Which does permeate a lot of the 80s soap opera-style superhero comics. X-Men generally pulled it off a bit better, but that had some epic problems of its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    The basic jist I'm getting from a lot of these posts here, is that either Kori helps Dick open up to his emotional side more without getting much in return or Dick helps Babs open up to her emotional side without getting much in return. I can completely see both being completely valid, which only makes me think they all need to find other people.
    Yeah, in fairness there may be compelling evidence that Dick just isn't the best long term option for either of these two ladies (and vice versa).
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 10-18-2021 at 03:05 PM.

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    A lot of stuff from the 80's haven't aged well. Especially if it involved with romance, sex and consent. We're lucky that Dick/Kory has as much of strong following today and a lot of it is also owed to the 2003 Teen Titans show. The core concept of the romance which Wolfman/Perez established still holds up though. The Donna/Terry Long romance would never fly today without some heavy retooling. The Wally/Raven thing would dropped or there could be romance but I think there is so much more to Wally now than when Wolfman was writing him that dredging that up would be redundant.

    Dick/Kory could go on to overcome all their obstacles, get married and make Nightstar one day. Or they could break up and go their separate ways and lives. I have no issues with Kory romancing Jason and Roy after breaking up with Dick. At this point, both are equally possible.

    Dick/Babs, I don't know, it feels like it's there because DC wants to keep major romances 'within the family' rather than anything that make sense for either character. They had to retcon in so much of their history in order to make the pairing feel plausible. I can see Dick and Babs going from childhood friends/partners to try and make a romantic relationship work but I can't see it lasting long term. Nor do I see it as an endgame relationship for either. I also don't think they need to be in a relationship for their cute interactions under Dixon and Simone's pens. I also think that DC desire to keep Babs as Batgirl and in this limited platonic ideal of who she should be has been severely detrimental to her character.

  7. #22
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    They didn’t actually retcon much to make it work. The retcons were added to enhance the romance, but it would work fine just on what was already there. Dick and Babs only ever have full on committed dated as Nightwing and Oracle. And it didn’t just happen because they loved it each other as kids. They courted back and forth for year as adults, leading to them eventually entering into a relationship. They went through the paces as adults in addition to the added retcons.

    Also DC has had Babs dating a lot as Batgirl. Just none of them make much of an impact.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-19-2021 at 11:56 AM.

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    A lot of stuff from the 80's haven't aged well. Especially if it involved with romance, sex and consent. We're lucky that Dick/Kory has as much of strong following today and a lot of it is also owed to the 2003 Teen Titans show. The core concept of the romance which Wolfman/Perez established still holds up though. The Donna/Terry Long romance would never fly today without some heavy retooling. The Wally/Raven thing would dropped or there could be romance but I think there is so much more to Wally now than when Wolfman was writing him that dredging that up would be redundant.

    Dick/Kory could go on to overcome all their obstacles, get married and make Nightstar one day. Or they could break up and go their separate ways and lives. I have no issues with Kory romancing Jason and Roy after breaking up with Dick. At this point, both are equally possible.

    Dick/Babs, I don't know, it feels like it's there because DC wants to keep major romances 'within the family' rather than anything that make sense for either character. They had to retcon in so much of their history in order to make the pairing feel plausible. I can see Dick and Babs going from childhood friends/partners to try and make a romantic relationship work but I can't see it lasting long term. Nor do I see it as an endgame relationship for either. I also don't think they need to be in a relationship for their cute interactions under Dixon and Simone's pens. I also think that DC desire to keep Babs as Batgirl and in this limited platonic ideal of who she should be has been severely detrimental to her character.
    I bring up Wally because while yes he was different when Wolfman was writing him (as all the characters would inevitably be), that was the era where Dick/Kory was most important. And it's very YMMV if any of the romances from that era were every really a strong point in that run to begin with. It all comes down to personal taste, especially for us as readers who were born after it was coming out and are reading it from a modern perspective. For better or worse, that run as a whole is the main thing the Titans IP has going for it, it's never really branched out into anything different that works on the same level. So Dick and Kory always seem like they're just rehashing the stuff from that era every time they hook up and inevitably drift apart again.

    I disagree that a lot of retcons had to take place to get Dick/Babs to work. At most they retconned her age to be younger (but still older than him), but like Godlike said they didn't really commit to the romance until he was Nightwing and she was Oracle anyway (I believe as a response to their ship teasing in stuff like BTAS). Most major romances do tend to take place within the IP itself, and considering the Batman mythos is Dick's original home and will always be more important than the Titans to him (since the latter is so unstable and DC has difficulty doing anything of substance with it), that isn't really a bad thing.

    The lack of any great output DC has with Babs as Batgirl in the main canon again is kind of irrelevant to the topic of her being with Dick. It's a valid issue, but a separate one.

    And regardless of fan debates, Dick's true love is going to depend on which IP is more relevant to him at any given time. Both romances are going to be annoying because of the big outside factor of DC not wanting to end the "will they/won't they" crap and no romance can avoid becoming annoying when that comes into play. Depending on the fan, both relationships can believably be long term or destined to fizzle out. And I don't think a fan who finds appeal in one is ever going to be convinced of the appeal of the other.

  9. #24
    Mighty Member WonderNight's Avatar
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    That's why I much prefer dick's love interest not be form from the batverse because that's where his home at most of the time. So a non bat love interest Hope's dick feel a little more independent and connected to the rest of the world outside of the batverse even if the his main home.

    Just like him having his on team does for him, the last thing dick needs is to be 100% bat!

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    This gives me more sibling vibes than romantic vibes.
    I never get the siblings comments. They met at 13, began working together at 16,17.

    Tim is a sibling Damian is a sibling, their under the same roof, same father. Babs was the first outsider and Bruce did not take to her immediately. While yes she is a core memeber today that took time and work to build that trust. Not like today where a new kid comes along every two years. While yes she is a big sister figure for Cass and Steph not dick. They we’re friends, coworkers, lovers.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    I never get the siblings comments. They met at 13, began working together at 16,17.

    Tim is a sibling Damian is a sibling, their under the same roof, same father. Babs was the first outsider and Bruce did not take to her immediately. While yes she is a core memeber today that took time and work to build that trust. Not like today where a new kid comes along every two years. While yes she is a big sister figure for Cass and Steph not dick. They we’re friends, coworkers, lovers.
    Really... Cause literally in that early image that got butchered in the godforsaken Nightwing annual, Dick literally referred to looking at Barbara as a big sister.EarlyDick-Babs05.jpg... So yes, there is precedent for a person saying they can see them as siblings (some of us have been around long enough to have read those issues when they first came out).

  12. #27
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Why do writers/fans like to see them together?
    That one is the most simple. Their fans either grew up with the '66 show, the 70's comics or BTAS/TNBA.

    Once the animated TT generation takes over these books, expect a lot more Dick/Kori stories than Dick/Babs.
    Last edited by Confuzzled; 10-19-2021 at 12:05 PM.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderNight View Post
    That's why I much prefer dick's love interest not be form from the batverse because that's where his home at most of the time. So a non bat love interest Hope's dick feel a little more independent and connected to the rest of the world outside of the batverse even if the his main home.

    Just like him having his on team does for him, the last thing dick needs is to be 100% bat!
    I agree! Tom Taylor’s run really cemented the idea to me that Dick as a character will never be as great as he can be with the batfam constantly around. So far all dick as done is be a babysitter and sidekick to babs in his own solo. The romance is really forced and completely negates his feelings for Bea (which he said he did love her).

    I ship dick with no one because he shouldn’t be known for his ships. He should be known for being a gray character overall. His best moments were his friendships with people outside batfam and the only batfamily characters he had a truely positive relationship was Tim and Damian.

    Many dickxbabs fans like to forget how horrible Barbra treated dick. She looks down on him and treats him as beneath her. She does nothing to prop him up and instead insists on dick being grounded when his entire character surrounds the idea of being able to fly and reach new heights.

    Dick and Babs are not compatible at all and it’s about time people stop pushing their fannon on Dick Grayson. He needs a solo run where he is Nightwing with new characters for Atleast 50-100 issues with minimal batfamily crossovers unless an emergency or just something to show they are close.

    All of Dick’s relationships have sailed. Let the man live and be with another love interest for a change. Dick has always wanted independence and freedom. Being tethered by Babs gives him none of that.

    Also, Babs and Dick were both retconned into oblivion to be together. Bat editorial wants him with babs to keep him from outshining Batman and keep him in the batfam. That’s it.
    Last edited by MakeNightwingGreatAgain; 10-19-2021 at 03:40 PM.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    I never get the siblings comments. They met at 13, began working together at 16,17.

    Tim is a sibling Damian is a sibling, their under the same roof, same father. Babs was the first outsider and Bruce did not take to her immediately. While yes she is a core memeber today that took time and work to build that trust. Not like today where a new kid comes along every two years. While yes she is a big sister figure for Cass and Steph not dick. They we’re friends, coworkers, lovers.
    Actually, this is a retcon. Babs was originally 5 or 6 years older than dick and met him when she was a congresswoman. Her development as a character was retconned every time to make her closer to Dick’s age. Babs was originally a Batman love interest which is why she shares a lot of the same ideas and traits at Batman. And why she appears more sibling like to the robins. It’s the truth. DickxBabs came from the idea that dick needed a reason to stay with batfam and to take him away from Titans. It’s only there to serve as a way for Dick to be needs by batfam editorial.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    I definitely understand the appeal of Dick/Babs and I do think they're good together. But if I really had to choose between his two main love interests, I'd probably go with Kory. Just because she's someone outside of the Bat Orbit, and...honestly...I've just been finding those two to be a way more fun/interesting couple now that I've started re-reading some older TT books.

    That said, I don't like constant feelings of will they/won't they from both of those options. They've both had many chances and now I'm kinda sick of 'em. So my vote will always be for Dick to just wipe his hands clean of both women and find somebody else. I will never not be salty that things didn't work out with him and Shawn. Or Babs and Luke for that matter.

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