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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Actually, this is a retcon. Babs was originally 5 or 6 years older than dick and met him when she was a congresswoman. Her development as a character was retconned every time to make her closer to Dickís age. Babs was originally a Batman love interest which is why she shares a lot of the same ideas and traits at Batman. And why she appears more sibling like to the robins. Itís the truth. DickxBabs came from the idea that dick needed a reason to stay with batfam and to take him away from Titans. Itís only there to serve as a way for Dick to be needs by batfam editorial.
    Yeah....Barbara was like 6 or 7 years older than Dick.
    She didn't meet him when she was a congresswoman though. She wasn't a congresswoman yet.
    Dr. Barbara Gordon was the head librarian of Gotham City Library at the time.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    I personally don't like the Dick/Babs ship. I love both characters but they don't really gel together for me. Dick always seems to get dumbed down. Babs gets very condescending and violent. How do you make a strong female character? Have her punch her male love interest, of course. Yay, domestic violence! I know it's down to lazy writing but it's still really off putting. Also, she has kissed his brother twice now, which is kind of gross. (No hate to Babs because, again, lazy writing.)

    I'd prefer that they'd date people from their own supporting cast, like Shawn, Bea, Clancy etc. On reflection, most of Babs love interests are kind of lame. I used to quite like Jason Bard but DC have done him dirty lately

    Also, the whole will-they-won't-they thing is beyond tedious. It's not my ideal ship but I'm resigned to it and I just wish DC would shit or get off the pot.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    I personally don't like the Dick/Babs ship. I love both characters but they don't really gel together for me. Dick always seems to get dumbed down. Babs gets very condescending and violent. How do you make a strong female character? Have her punch her male love interest, of course. Yay, domestic violence! I know it's down to lazy writing but it's still really off putting. Also, she has kissed his brother twice now, which is kind of gross. (No hate to Babs because, again, lazy writing.)

    I'd prefer that they'd date people from their own supporting cast, like Shawn, Bea, Clancy etc. On reflection, most of Babs love interests are kind of lame. I used to quite like Jason Bard but DC have done him dirty lately

    Also, the whole will-they-won't-they thing is beyond tedious. It's not my ideal ship but I'm resigned to it and I just wish DC would shit or get off the pot.
    haha i dont even want DC to shit. I want them off the pot entirely. I want DC to completely start Dick over as Nightwing. No Shawn, Bea, runoffs. Give him his classic villains from his time as robin and when he was still in Gotham and then completely start over. That way we have time to learn and grow with the characters. And this is coming from someone who actually shipped DickxBea.

  4. #34
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    Can someone provide me an example of Babs talking down to dick.

  5. #35
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    I came to Batman comics via Batman: The Animated Series, where Dick and Babs fancied each other. When I got into the books, Dixon started planting the seeds of getting them together and later writers fleshed that out into a decent pairing. Pretty much anything prior to TAS gives them a very different relationship but that's where I started.

    I still think they work better than Dick/Kory but I can't say a part of that isn't always going to be informed by my introduction to the characters in the comics.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  6. #36
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    That one is the most simple. Their fans either grew up with the '66 show, the 70's comics or BTAS/TNBA.

    Once the animated TT generation takes over these books, expect a lot more Dick/Kori stories than Dick/Babs.
    The TT animated generation and the BTAS/DCAU animated generation are pretty much the same (for example, I grew up on both shows).

    It also depends on how viable the the Titans property is on the comic front. If it continues to be a non-starter that DC doesn't know what to do with, I wouldn't expect many Dick/Kory stories and for him to remain more in the Bat-office.

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Actually, this is a retcon. Babs was originally 5 or 6 years older than dick and met him when she was a congresswoman. Her development as a character was retconned every time to make her closer to Dick’s age. Babs was originally a Batman love interest which is why she shares a lot of the same ideas and traits at Batman. And why she appears more sibling like to the robins. It’s the truth. DickxBabs came from the idea that dick needed a reason to stay with batfam and to take him away from Titans. It’s only there to serve as a way for Dick to be needs by batfam editorial.
    She met him before she was a congresswoman, even though she was older and out of college.

  7. #37
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    I think that the Gotham City heritage is an important part of what makes the
    Grayson-Gordon relationship work.

    Barbara understands that part of Dick. Because she has it too, with each of
    them growing up as mature adults.

    Barbara also pushes Dick to get out of his comfort zone. She is never the
    kind of woman who will be satisfied with him being content with how things are.
    She brings out the best in Dick.

    As for Barbara, he is someone she has known for quite a while. She can be
    herself. Dick can be someone she can trust. She can push Dick's limits, while
    being aware that he can take it from her. He is the kind of man who she can carve
    a life with longterm.

    That said there are issues for the two of them. One is certainly that so much
    is going on that it can disrupt them. Dick also has that player persona, that is
    simply not going to play with Barbara.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    This gives me more sibling vibes than romantic vibes.
    I get the same vibe also. Writers may feel differently because they tend to play on young love tropes.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They didn’t actually retcon much to make it work. The retcons were added to enhance the romance, but it would work fine just on what was already there. Dick and Babs only ever have full on committed dated as Nightwing and Oracle. And it didn’t just happen because they loved it each other as kids. They courted back and forth for year as adults, leading to them eventually entering into a relationship. They went through the paces as adults in addition to the added retcons.

    Also DC has had Babs dating a lot as Batgirl. Just none of them make much of an impact.
    Not really, Dixon's Batgirl: Year One and Nightwing: Year One showed that Dick and Babs had sexual tension even back when they were Robin and Batgirl. Dick even kisses her in the former and in the latter he flirts with Babs even though he was in a committed relationship with Kory at the time and was adamant on being in a monogamous relationship. Even the current run showed them as school mates which is new.

    I want to mention that infamous Nightwing annual where Dick sleeps with Barbara before his marriage to Kory but I honestly can't tell whether it wanted me to root for Dick/Babs or hate it. lol But even that story plays on the notion that both characters were always holding a torch for each other.

    I wouldn't mind if writers played them as friends who later became lovers but that's usually not the case. Writers want you to believe that Dick/Babs is always meant to be and that even if both of them are dating different people they're still pining for each other and none of their other romances matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I bring up Wally because while yes he was different when Wolfman was writing him (as all the characters would inevitably be), that was the era where Dick/Kory was most important. And it's very YMMV if any of the romances from that era were every really a strong point in that run to begin with. It all comes down to personal taste, especially for us as readers who were born after it was coming out and are reading it from a modern perspective. For better or worse, that run as a whole is the main thing the Titans IP has going for it, it's never really branched out into anything different that works on the same level. So Dick and Kory always seem like they're just rehashing the stuff from that era every time they hook up and inevitably drift apart again.
    The NTT run, the 2003 cartoon and even the animated Nu52 movies plus the Titans show have given the pairing some kind of boost over the years. So I don't think the NTT run is the only thing the pairing has going for it and you got to ask yourself why the pairing keeps resonating with so many people despite DC's efforts to bury the Titans during the Didio era.

    I disagree that a lot of retcons had to take place to get Dick/Babs to work. At most they retconned her age to be younger (but still older than him), but like Godlike said they didn't really commit to the romance until he was Nightwing and she was Oracle anyway (I believe as a response to their ship teasing in stuff like BTAS). Most major romances do tend to take place within the IP itself, and considering the Batman mythos is Dick's original home and will always be more important than the Titans to him (since the latter is so unstable and DC has difficulty doing anything of substance with it), that isn't really a bad thing.
    See my reply to Godlike above.

    The lack of any great output DC has with Babs as Batgirl in the main canon again is kind of irrelevant to the topic of her being with Dick. It's a valid issue, but a separate one.

    And regardless of fan debates, Dick's true love is going to depend on which IP is more relevant to him at any given time. Both romances are going to be annoying because of the big outside factor of DC not wanting to end the "will they/won't they" crap and no romance can avoid becoming annoying when that comes into play. Depending on the fan, both relationships can believably be long term or destined to fizzle out. And I don't think a fan who finds appeal in one is ever going to be convinced of the appeal of the other.
    Actually, I think they are connected and it just hit me, there is a parallel here to Spider-Man/OMD.

    Ok hear me, out after OMD I stopped giving a shit about Spider-Man after he sold his marriage to the Devil. Like why should I give a shit about any of growth or romantic interest if it's going to have a cut off point and it will be undone?

    Same thing with Babs after Nu52. Whether it's Simone's Batgirl or the Burnside Batgirl or whatever they're doing now, it's hard to give a shit when the character's been deaged and infantilized. Even her romance with Dick isn't going to go anywhere really because they want her to be perpetually young and never grow up.

    Just like with Spider-Man, writers have this idealized nostalgic version of their heads and they don't want this version to grow up, ever. Even though for some of us, the entire appeal is seeing them grow. In the comics, Babs was never this soft, innocent little girl going on cutesy little adventures that Batgirl Year One and the Burnside Batgirl tried to tell us. She was a more grown up, mature, serious hero who didn't go by 'Batwoman' only out a technicality of there already being a 'Batwoman' (albeit retired). Even Killer Moth was a more serious villains in the old 60's comics while later writers turned him into a joke. On B:TAS, Dini said they didn't want to scale down any the threats just because Batgirl was there and it's true, they had her fighting DCAU Skynet is her intro episode and her Batgirl episode had her fighting Big City Corruption. Even in the follow up series, the threat level never went down or became sillier just because Babs as Batgirl was there.

    And while I agree that ultimately the ones in charge of the IP gets to decide what to do with them and the current Nightwing run is a nostalgic throw back to Dixon's Nightwing run, I think they still need to do what's best for the character and do more than harken back to nostaglia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    I never get the siblings comments. They met at 13, began working together at 16,17.

    Tim is a sibling Damian is a sibling, their under the same roof, same father. Babs was the first outsider and Bruce did not take to her immediately. While yes she is a core memeber today that took time and work to build that trust. Not like today where a new kid comes along every two years. While yes she is a big sister figure for Cass and Steph not dick. They we’re friends, coworkers, lovers.
    A lot of that probably from their bickering in 'The Batman' show. But even in the comics, there have been moments where I got that sibling vibe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    That one is the most simple. Their fans either grew up with the '66 show, the 70's comics or BTAS/TNBA.

    Once the animated TT generation takes over these books, expect a lot more Dick/Kori stories than Dick/Babs.
    The animated TT generation and the B:TAS generation are largely the same. I now since I'm one of them.

    Nobody came out of the '66 show wishing for more Dick/Babs after seeing West/Craig's on screen chemistry.

    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    I came to Batman comics via Batman: The Animated Series, where Dick and Babs fancied each other. When I got into the books, Dixon started planting the seeds of getting them together and later writers fleshed that out into a decent pairing. Pretty much anything prior to TAS gives them a very different relationship but that's where I started.

    I still think they work better than Dick/Kory but I can't say a part of that isn't always going to be informed by my introduction to the characters in the comics.
    I grew up with both B:TAS and 2k3 Titans. Spent most of the Didio editorial era going through back issues of older comics. I used to root for Dick/Babs but I think over time I changed my mind and started rooting for Dick/Kory. I think the latter just has more going for it while Dick/Babs feel like it's there because the editorial/writers want it and not because it feels organic for both characters.


    At this point, I think Dick, Barbara and Kory all need to date different people. Not new characters but established characters. Build their characters up individually for a bit. Have them date them date other people and then figure out who they are most compatible with in the end.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Not really, Dixon's Batgirl: Year One and Nightwing: Year One showed that Dick and Babs had sexual tension even back when they were Robin and Batgirl. Dick even kisses her in the former and in the latter he flirts with Babs even though he was in a committed relationship with Kory at the time and was adamant on being in a monogamous relationship. Even the current run showed them as school mates which is new.

    I want to mention that infamous Nightwing annual where Dick sleeps with Barbara before his marriage to Kory but I honestly can't tell whether it wanted me to root for Dick/Babs or hate it. lol But even that story plays on the notion that both characters were always holding a torch for each other.

    I wouldn't mind if writers played them as friends who later became lovers but that's usually not the case. Writers want you to believe that Dick/Babs is always meant to be and that even if both of them are dating different people they're still pining for each other and none of their other romances matter.
    They could cut all that and the relationship would still have worked just on what they were doing with them as adults. Its not that there weren't retcons, but they were supplementary.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They could cut all that and the relationship would still have worked just on what they were doing with them as adults. Its not that there weren't retcons, but they were supplementary.
    Retcons are retcons even if supplementary. Dick babs had zero history outside of a small indecent incident in the 60s I believe. Thier history was retconned to being dick back to batfam after NTT let him go. Iím not saying itís not supplementary, but to downplay the retcon aspect is also not the right direction. Babs serves as a tether to batfam and thatís all. DC will never let it go. Itís the same with Kory. Kory is Dickís tether to Titans. They will never let it go.

    Also I think itís worth mentioning that Babs has had significant relationships with both Jason Bard and Ted Kord. Booster gold even I believe. Those were all retconned as well. Both dick and babs got retconned to be compatible despite even now not being believable. Not even Dick Kory is really compatible anymore.

    I agree with John Venus in that they need to all date other people. Babs needs someone who is more established and driven who will climb the ladder of success with her. Dick needs someone willing to fly with him and be there for him whenever he needs it. Kory needs someone to explore all that humanity has to offer and who wonít judge her species. I donít know if any established character would work for Dick who doesnít already have a big history with other characters that would have to be retconned. DC needs new IP for Dick to explore. But Ted Kord and Jason Bard are right there for Babs so there is that. And they can really re-do blue beetle by incorporating Babs more into the lore. That way babs gets to be away from batfam as well.

    As adults Dick and Babs are ok dating, but full blown end game is a stretch since they are too different and clearly want two different things. They only work when you devalue both characterizations and change the very essence that make them unique.

    Dick babs and dick Kory only really work in fannon. And thatís fine if your Nightwing where your solo series isnít solid. But when the time comes for DC to actually get serious about him and establish him to stand alongside the OG characters, he will need an original and unique love interest. Thatís just my new take on all this.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Not really, Dixon's Batgirl: Year One and Nightwing: Year One showed that Dick and Babs had sexual tension even back when they were Robin and Batgirl. Dick even kisses her in the former and in the latter he flirts with Babs even though he was in a committed relationship with Kory at the time and was adamant on being in a monogamous relationship. Even the current run showed them as school mates which is new.

    I want to mention that infamous Nightwing annual where Dick sleeps with Barbara before his marriage to Kory but I honestly can't tell whether it wanted me to root for Dick/Babs or hate it. lol But even that story plays on the notion that both characters were always holding a torch for each other.

    I wouldn't mind if writers played them as friends who later became lovers but that's usually not the case. Writers want you to believe that Dick/Babs is always meant to be and that even if both of them are dating different people they're still pining for each other and none of their other romances matter
    .
    Isn’t that how it works in DC? Few marvel characters have been in this predicament like Cyclops, Jean Wolverine, Emma. Perhaps Kitty pryde, I suppose with collosus, and quill and now also Magyk. And even then the discourse is not as bad

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Isn’t that how it works in DC? Few marvel characters have been in this predicament like Cyclops, Jean Wolverine, Emma. Perhaps Kitty pryde, I suppose with collosus, and quill and now also Magyk. And even then the discourse is not as bad
    Per Wolverine and Jean, Wolverine never really committed to anyone but Jean correct? I know he has said he wanted to be with Storm a couple times but I don’t think he has ever not wanted to be with Jean. Both dick and babs have been committed to other people. And dick more so than babs. It’s just odd.

    I think people (like myself) just want dick to have a love interest who is only synonymous with him across all content really. like spiderman and Mary Jane or Sue storm and Reed Richards. The same for batgirl as well. Like they will always be together and the general public recognizes that. When dick is with babs sometimes in bat content and then dick is with Kory in titans stuff, it’s really confusing and promotes the shipping war. Better to just end it.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeNightwingGreatAgain View Post
    Retcons are retcons even if supplementary. Dick babs had zero history outside of a small indecent incident in the 60s I believe. Thier history was retconned to being dick back to batfam after NTT let him go. I’m not saying it’s not supplementary, but to downplay the retcon aspect is also not the right direction. Babs serves as a tether to batfam and that’s all. DC will never let it go. It’s the same with Kory. Kory is Dick’s tether to Titans. They will never let it go.

    Also I think it’s worth mentioning that Babs has had significant relationships with both Jason Bard and Ted Kord. Booster gold even I believe. Those were all retconned as well. Both dick and babs got retconned to be compatible despite even now not being believable. Not even Dick Kory is really compatible anymore.

    I agree with John Venus in that they need to all date other people. Babs needs someone who is more established and driven who will climb the ladder of success with her. Dick needs someone willing to fly with him and be there for him whenever he needs it. Kory needs someone to explore all that humanity has to offer and who won’t judge her species. I don’t know if any established character would work for Dick who doesn’t already have a big history with other characters that would have to be retconned. DC needs new IP for Dick to explore. But Ted Kord and Jason Bard are right there for Babs so there is that. And they can really re-do blue beetle by incorporating Babs more into the lore. That way babs gets to be away from batfam as well.

    As adults Dick and Babs are ok dating, but full blown end game is a stretch since they are too different and clearly want two different things. They only work when you devalue both characterizations and change the very essence that make them unique.

    Dick babs and dick Kory only really work in fannon. And that’s fine if your Nightwing where your solo series isn’t solid. But when the time comes for DC to actually get serious about him and establish him to stand alongside the OG characters, he will need an original and unique love interest. That’s just my new take on all this.
    They didn't have zero history, they were still Batgirl and Robin. Btas didn't even need their comic history to create a workable romance between the two. The retcons isn't what made the relationship work. They also didn't actually retcon out Babs having a significant relationships with Jason Bard or Ted Kord. They brought back Jason Bard, and Ted Kord was just an online fling. They went on one date. Both were used as rivals during the courting phase of Dick and Babs relationship.
    As adults Dick and Babs are naturally compatible, and over a time an adult relationship was built. A lot of the retcons came after the relationship even. Done more to pander then out of necessity. Dick and Babs makes plenty of sense. With or with out the retcons. They are compatible, yet their personality differ enough that they can still challenge the other. But not so different that they break the others world or power scale.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-22-2021 at 07:05 PM.

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They didn't have zero history, they were still Batgirl and Robin. Btas didn't need their comic history to create a workable romance between the two. At its core the retcons isn't what made the relationship work. They also didn't actually retcon Babs having a significant relationships with Jason Bard or Ted Kord. They brought back Jason Bard, and Ted Kord was just an online fling. They went on one date. Both were used as rivals during the courting phase of their relationship. As adults Dick and Babs are naturally compatible, and over a time an adult relationship was built. A lot of the retcons came after the relationship even. Done to more to pander then out of necessity. Dick and Babs makes plenty of sense. With or with out the retcons. They are compatible, yet their personality differ enough that they can still challenge the other. But not so different that they break the others world or power scale.
    We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here. I donít see it especially when Babs was originally way too old for Dick in the first place. Babs was never planned to be with Dick until they needed something to contrast Dick Kory. It would be more believable if you know, DC didnít place Babs with legit all the batfam. They never were originally together as batgirl and Robin. You might be confusing her with Bette Kane who was the batgirl that was placed with Robin briefly. Barbra Gordon was originally shipped with Batman thanks to the original tv series and comics where she was more of a Batman girl than Robin (whcih is what Bruce Timm grew up with). Since then. She was aged down dramatically to be with Dick. The only time where they had a little thing was when pre-teen dick had a very short lived crush on babs. And babs as An adult kissed him. Dick clearly was taken a back by it as well. I donít really count that as proof of their history.

    I disagree about Ted Kord. Babs was clearly in a serious thing with him and was shocked to find out his true identity. It was something that was going somewhere until it was randomly stopped. I know Jason has appeared but they did zero with his development with babs.

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