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  1. #31
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    This post captures everything about Jon so well I like it, I like it a lot. ANOTHER!

    (It makes it easier to overlook the stuff I don't like, unlike the actual comics themselves.)
    Ignoring all the comics I don't like has made being a comics fan so much more fun. Anytime I see something dumb, I just pretend Hypertime momentarily hiccupped and events occurring on Earth-Mediocre manifested in the DCU.

    Or a wizard did it. &*$#ing wizards.

  2. #32
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Trying to pin the shedding readership on one specific thing is pretty foolish considering there's also the price point, distribution model, rate of delivery for content versus other mediums and a glut of other content to compete with. Anecdotal evidence, but I also know a few prospective fans who got chased out of the industry because the old fans drove them out with rampant hostility, gatekeeping and homophobia/racism permeating a lot of discussion trying to pin every failure on some mix of a character being non-white or queer.

    So yeah, I doubt Superman's three decades of declining sales have everything to do with the kid he had five years ago.
    Very true, it is, however, sad Superman sales are in such a long-term slump. Superman should be right up there with Spider-Man & Batman in terms of sale numbers yet he hasn't been in many a year. When you look at the success of Dragon Ball, My Hero Academia (although there are also heavy X-Men elements), The Boys, Invincible, etc. there is certainly a market out there for Superman-type characters yet for whatever reason DC can't seem to tap into that market (and haven't been able to for at least twenty years).

    Edit - If I'm perfectly blunt I think Bat God is one of the reasons Superman is in the hole he is in. I can't see characters such as Goku, Deku, Homelander, or Omni Man getting nerfed by someone such as Batman in their universes. If anything those characters would steamroll the Bat arguably nerfing him. Superman loses so often and so badly to Batman it has become a meme.
    Last edited by Celgress; 10-19-2021 at 08:07 PM.
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  3. #33
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Far and away the most controversial Superman is the Injustice Superman by a country mile.
    Nah. I hate him and many other hardcore Superman fans hate him, but he’s extremely popular amongst casuals. He’s baby’s first evil Superman for the 21st century.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Trying to pin the shedding readership on one specific thing is pretty foolish considering there's also the price point, distribution model, rate of delivery for content versus other mediums and a glut of other content to compete with. Anecdotal evidence, but I also know a few prospective fans who got chased out of the industry because the old fans drove them out with rampant hostility, gatekeeping and homophobia/racism permeating a lot of discussion trying to pin every failure on some mix of a character being non-white or queer.

    So yeah, I doubt Superman's three decades of declining sales have everything to do with the kid he had five years ago.
    Been there. Yes, art comics fans have attacked the reactionary aspect for years and all it got them is a graphic novel readership. Of course comics in general have been under it but the reactionaries have a point if we don't buy them who will. The new kids are more vested in the competition than they are. or to bring it back to Superman who are those new Kids who loved Morrison's Superman? The old guard is still there holding up one end of the tent but who is still coming in?
    And if the whole wide world stops singing
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  5. #35
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Been there. Yes, art comics fans have attacked the reactionary aspect for years and all it got them is a graphic novel readership. Of course comics in general have been under it but the reactionaries have a point if we don't buy them who will. The new kids are more vested in the competition than they are. or to bring it back to Superman who are those new Kids who loved Morrison's Superman? The old guard is still there holding up one end of the tent but who is still coming in?
    Numbers across the medium are rising, so presumably more than are running off to ComicsGate to spread hate and declare themselves victims for having to face the consequences of their actions.
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  6. #36
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    I have no opinion on this character, since I haven't read any of the new comics--just the ones when he was still a kid.

    If they wanted a young Superman, I think the better way to go would have been to dial back the clock on all their big franchise characters and have them all be young and just starting out. It would have more meaning if it was young Clark, young Bruce, young Barry.

    The fact that they have inserted Jonathan Kent II into the continuity, without allowing him to have a regular progression in life and rushed to age him up so he could be Superman, makes me think there was some other reason for this. Maybe they are worried about losing copyright. If they lose some rights to Superman, they can't lose rights to Jonathan because he's a relatively new character--so the copyright clock won't start running out until you get into the 22nd century (in the year 2110, if copyright can make it by then, if man is still alive, if woman can survive, they may fall).
    Never desert Alex Désert when he's eating sugary sweet dessert in the sandy desert!

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I have no opinion on this character, since I haven't read any of the new comics--just the ones when he was still a kid.

    If they wanted a young Superman, I think the better way to go would have been to dial back the clock on all their big franchise characters and have them all be young and just starting out. It would have more meaning if it was young Clark, young Bruce, young Barry.

    The fact that they have inserted Jonathan Kent II into the continuity, without allowing him to have a regular progression in life and rushed to age him up so he could be Superman, makes me think there was some other reason for this. Maybe they are worried about losing copyright. If they lose some rights to Superman, they can't lose rights to Jonathan because he's a relatively new character--so the copyright clock won't start running out until you get into the 22nd century (in the year 2110, if copyright can make it by then, if man is still alive, if woman can survive, they may fall).
    They did, that was the New 52. Making a mess of that was why I suspect they decided to use Jon this time in an attempt to craft a Superman for a new generation.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  8. #38
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    Been there. Yes, art comics fans have attacked the reactionary aspect for years and all it got them is a graphic novel readership. Of course comics in general have been under it but the reactionaries have a point if we don't buy them who will. The new kids are more vested in the competition than they are. or to bring it back to Superman who are those new Kids who loved Morrison's Superman? The old guard is still there holding up one end of the tent but who is still coming in?
    well,I am new guy who loved morrison's superman.For me,that is superman..In jeans and tshirt.Oh! i was more into mangas,still am.I suspect there would be others like myself.And i have seen a couple of them joining after rebirth and was into jon.The direction changes have been an annoyance..yes..But,not as much as character being stuck in a rut and " going back to classic byrne or donner" takes..I mean,can these guys just do their own takes on the character?why should i care about superman 1970 or 1986?i came here for modern adaptations of the old pulp fiction hero superman that siegel and shuster left behind.That's it.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-20-2021 at 10:40 AM.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    They did, that was the New 52. Making a mess of that was why I suspect they decided to use Jon this time in an attempt to craft a Superman for a new generation.
    Sort of. I'm no expert--I only glanced at the New 52 comics. The Morrison in ACTION was a young Superman. But the comics were all over the map, with an older Superman in other comics. And the Batman family was where they had been before Flashpoint, with just some characters missing.

    This is what they always do when they reboot. Some things start at the beginning but others are not. So it's all a mess. It would be okay, if these were different universes, but if it's a shared universe, then it should restart across the board at the same place.
    Never desert Alex Désert when he's eating sugary sweet dessert in the sandy desert!

  10. #40
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    I care about Clark Kent Superman, not the other versions.

    That is pretty much my same position with the Batman family.
    I care about Bruce Wayne Batman, not the Batfamily, with the exception
    of Dick Grayson.

    I'm not invested in Jon Kent either in a positive or negative version.
    That said it is entirely possible for Jon to become the Superman of this generation.
    I just have a hard time thinking he can become a replacement for Clark.
    Even the whole Supermen motif will only have the effect of muddying the waters.

    I think that there is a cyclical effect in circulation numbers. If you want to argue
    for a reboot, what has gone on with Superman is part of the problem. But a reboot
    will only work once they figure out what to do with Supes.

    Jon is nowhere as destructive to Superman's legacy than the ridiculous Injustice films,
    along with the Snyder DCEU films.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    If you're looking purely at numbers, then you have to go to DCEU or video games simply because people who read or just pay attention to comics are such a smaller population.

    But if you truncate your data and just look at people who do pay close attention, I would eliminate DCEU in the sense that I don't think Superman fans are against having Superman in the DCEU. You can eliminate much of the divisiveness by making changes to the character. I think all of us here are in favor of some kind of cinematic Superman. It's just the loud ones among us have standards we want met.

    Jon "wins" for me because every step along the way is a bit divisive. Should he exist or not? Check. Should he be infant, child, or teen-aged? Should he have a separate line of books as a supporting character or should the main line focus on him? Should he be hetero or bi, or other? Should this character be permanent or should he disappear in the next reboot we all expect will eventually happen? I get that you could make a similar argument for DCEU Superman, in that every decision you make will hurt somebody's feelings, but at least old fogeys like me aren't going to get too miffed just because DCEU Superman exists in some version. You can make creative decisions to win us over. Main comic Jon is forever lost to me and hardliners who say "No" to things like children in continuity, or at least it feels this way, and now he's been around long enough that people will (reasonably) be angry if he disappears.

    Jon beats Injustice Supes in my book because this EVIL SUPERMAN! isn't exactly meant to last forever, or at least I don't read it that way. I sort of see him like Kevin Conroy's DCAU Batman. You know there'll be a day when that version of the character is retired or at least mostly retired. IJ beats Jon again in terms of sheer numbers of affected people, but if you're just looking at percentages of people who are impacted by these stories and lasting effect, I think Jon wins.

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    I loved kid Jon. I have hated nearly everything Bendis did with him since he took over. That is not just Jon though I hate everything Superman related Bendis has done. The next Crisis can't come soon enough and wipe away everything that hack did.

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Sort of. I'm no expert--I only glanced at the New 52 comics. The Morrison in ACTION was a young Superman. But the comics were all over the map, with an older Superman in other comics. And the Batman family was where they had been before Flashpoint, with just some characters missing.

    This is what they always do when they reboot. Some things start at the beginning but others are not. So it's all a mess. It would be okay, if these were different universes, but if it's a shared universe, then it should restart across the board at the same place.
    Pretty much. While I still love New 52 Superman and haven't and never will agree with the common complaints about his character in particular, the overall DC initiative failed because thy made it confusing when not being confusing should have been one of the advertised perks to offset what was lost. Instead they lost history, and didn't even gain that concept of clean slates. You can't half ass a reboot, it just makes no sense. You do it or don't. And if you don't want the losses that come with it, fine. Just don't think you can half ass it. Now, to their credit, they have done that here with Infinite Frontier. I hate most everything it stands for but from the point of view of rebooting, it at the very least is not trying to do that half-hearted again. Lots of (too much) legacy is their new attempt to get young again without rebooting. I can give it that much if not much else.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-20-2021 at 12:54 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  14. #44
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Not a fan of Jon but I don't dislike him either.

    My favorite of "Superman's Children" was Christopher Kent. I absolutely loved his story. The son of Zod and Ursa only to be adopted by Clark and Lois. They're carrying the Torch from Jonathan and Martha.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of Superman as a father in any facet, so I wasn't big on Chris at the time either (though I didn't hate him with the fervor I hate Jon and any of this current stuff). By comparison, that character, dynamic with Clark and Lois, the parallels, it was so wildly superior.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 10-21-2021 at 12:56 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

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