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  1. #76

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    in the longer-term, I think a lot has been lost to make Jon older. Him being middle-school aged like Damian was fine.
    Hopefully someday there will be some "lost adventures" of 11 year old Jon.

  2. #77
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    That is because they thought it was CLARK KENT not his son because so many of the trolls only saw Superman and that was it.
    And then Son of Kal-El and Jon himself were trending. I saw multiple news reports where they clarified that this new Superman was Jon.

    But at the end of the day you're talking about a brand and not a singular character. I'm sure some people assumed Miles was just a race bent Peter at some point. It happens. It's part of the game and part of the spotlight. But once the idea sets in, and DC digs their heels in, the distinction will be made similar to Miles and Peter. But the spotlight itself right now-- even via making the mistake of thinking it's Clark-- is still what they're looking for.

    Sell the the hook to show them the book, as it were.

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    But isn't it still a hedge on DC's part to do this to Clark Kent's kid instead of Clark Kent himself? PKJ has a point, but it's not one entirely being made with Superman since they just slapped that moniker on a different character.
    No. Superman is a brand just like Spider-Man is a brand, and that goes beyond the particulars of individual characters. The way they talk about Jon as Superman they know full well that they're talking about the general idea of Superman beyond whatever era reboot or even character. They are just talking about Superman. Same as you'd have talked about Flash or Green Lantern, and the same way they don't call Miles anything less than Spider-Man.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I have to believe that you know good and well why "Superboy comes out as bi" means FAAAAAAR less than "SUPERMAN comes out as bi"

    I mean, if you want a comparison then just look at how the "hey look Robin's bi now" got utterly ECLIPSED by Jon's news. I have friends that don't even pick up comics calling me and asking about this. My own mother was watching the news and saw this. This trended on Twitter like three different times. Tom Taylor went on the news to talk about this.

    What about Robin? A few nerds got happy or mad and now no one cares.

    As PKJ said in his interview, it means something that it's the cultural icon of SuperMAN being the one and not some random hero or even a subordinate sub version/sidekick.
    You missed the part where I said "until he's older and (unfortunately) becomes the bi Superman"

    Whether or not this is something the character discovered about himself recently or while he was Superboy, DC would still have their headline-hungry Bisexual Superman. That's still gonna attract all the hype and attention that it did now. Because, yes, a bi Superman is a big deal.

    That said, I'm pretty sure the same "A few nerds got happy or mad and now no one cares." is going to happen with this too. This was a bigger deal than Tim being bi (or whatever the hell he is) but eventually that hype is gonna die down because those same nerds are gonna be the only ones who still care enough to buy the books in a few months. For better or worse, folks outside of the existing reader base just don't really care enough about comics like that. They care about the characters and will gladly see them on TV or the big screen. But if it's just something that's only happening in the comics....nobody's gonna care. Especially once more of the general public starts figuring out that this Superman isn't the same one they all know anyway.
    Last edited by Blue22; 10-23-2021 at 04:37 PM.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Miles wasn't seen as race bent peter because Peter was dead.

  5. #80
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    You missed the part where I said "until he's older and (unfortunately) becomes the bi Superman"
    But correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that imply DC wouldn't have a bi Superman now, but rather a bi Superboy now and then maybe a bi Superman later? I didn't miss that part, I saw it and still think it ends with the same result of not as strong a headline. Jon coming out while he's officially Superman means something, and captures the moment forever as significant.

    That said, I'm pretty sure the same "A few nerds got happy or mad and now no one cares." is going to happen with this too.
    Like all things it will, yeah. But unlike Robin, it wasn't just "a few nerds." It was literally national news. My own mother asked me about it. MSNBC, CNN, and Fox news were shotgunning this story around, and Taylor had an interview on the news about it. There were actual government officials weighing in for and against this over Twitter. And here I am, a nerd, and I legitimately can't tell you who the writer for Tim's story was or what issue of the comic it happened in. That spark, along with the in demand reprints of every issue so far, issue 5 being reprinted ahead of time, and Son of Kal-El being the best selling Superman related book out right now is all working together and sending a message to DC itself.

    This was a bigger deal than Tim being bi (or whatever the hell he is) but eventually that hype is gonna die down because those same nerds are gonna be the only ones who still care enough to buy the books in a few months. For better or worse, folks outside of the existing reader base just don't really care enough about comics like that. They care about the characters and will gladly see them on TV or the big screen. But if it's just something that's only happening in the comics....nobody's gonna care. Especially once more of the general public starts figuring out that this Superman isn't the same one they all know anyway.
    And that's ultimately fine because, like Miles before him, Jon is gaining a lot of good will and attention. And, exclusive to the Superman brand, this is one of the only times in recent history that Superman as a brand has moved itself away from the general view of being "your pop pop's comics". That change in perception in a positive light by the general public is ultimately worth more than comic sales, but that leads to the possiblity of more outside of comics.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #81
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    Miles wasn't seen as race bent peter because Peter was dead.
    And literally everyone who heard or read "Spider-Man is black now" totally thought that, right? Everyone in the general public or people who fell off reading month to month just knew that and not one single person got mixed up because every headline read "hey everyone, in the interest of transparency we'd like to inform you that a new character named Miles-- who is not Peter Parker-- will be Spider-Man now. This will also take place in another continuity. Please click on this article, thank you."
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  7. #82
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that imply DC wouldn't have a bi Superman now, but rather a bi Superboy now and then maybe a bi Superman later? I didn't miss that part, I saw it and still think it ends with the same result of not as strong a headline. Jon coming out while he's officially Superman means something, and captures the moment forever as significant.



    Like all things it will, yeah. But unlike Robin, it wasn't just "a few nerds." It was literally national news. My own mother asked me about it. MSNBC, CNN, and Fox news were shotgunning this story around, and Taylor had an interview on the news about it. There were actual government officials weighing in for and against this over Twitter. And here I am, a nerd, and I legitimately can't tell you who the writer for Tim's story was or what issue of the comic it happened in. That spark, along with the in demand reprints of every issue so far, issue 5 being reprinted ahead of time, and Son of Kal-El being the best selling Superman related book out right now is all working together and sending a message to DC itself.



    And that's ultimately fine because, like Miles before him, Jon is gaining a lot of good will and attention. And, exclusive to the Superman brand, this is one of the only times in recent history that Superman as a brand has moved itself away from the general view of being "your pop pop's comics". That change in perception in a positive light by the general public is ultimately worth more than comic sales, but that leads to the possiblity of more outside of comics.
    Pretty much the final word on the issue and I couldn't put it better myself.
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  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that imply DC wouldn't have a bi Superman now, but rather a bi Superboy now and then maybe a bi Superman later? I didn't miss that part, I saw it and still think it ends with the same result of not as strong a headline. Jon coming out while he's officially Superman means something, and captures the moment forever as significant.
    Yep. And the headline would be just as strong because, in the end, they got their Bi Superman. The only thing anyone is gonna care about is whether or not the fact that the guy currently going by Superman is
    That is always going to make headlines, regardless of whether or not it's a character that people already know is bi (though that's mostly just comic readers. Given the number of people thinking Clark's the one who came out, it's pretty clear the only ones who know Jon even exists are the ones who keep up with the books) a bi Superman is going to be the same level of "big deal".

    The same way Sam Wilson (a character people have known about for decades) becoming Captain America was a big deal (and then made an even bigger deal when the MCU followed suit) because it didn't matter if this was a guy everyone already knew was black. What mattered was that this black guy was the one going by Captain America. Whether or not the new Superman is someone who's just coming out or someone who readers already know is bi, it's still gonna be a huge deal. The fact that Superman is bi is still a huge game changing deal that's gonna get Taylor and DC all the same amount of brownie points and media attention that they want, regardless of how they reached that point.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    And literally everyone who heard or read "Spider-Man is black now" totally thought that, right? Everyone in the general public or people who fell off reading month to month just knew that and not one single person got mixed up because every headline read "hey everyone, in the interest of transparency we'd like to inform you that a new character named Miles-- who is not Peter Parker-- will be Spider-Man now. This will also take place in another continuity. Please click on this article, thank you."
    Not really because it was clear at the time when Miles came out that it was for the Ulimate Marvel section. Reports were more along the line of Marvel kills Peter Parker, and readers of Ultimate Marvel didn't want to read about Miles who was coming in. The headlines ten years ago were not as click bait as they are now. Headlines were more about how Marvel was killing the Ultimate Peter Parker, or that he died and we now have a Black Spider-man there. So while there was "Peter's the only spider-man" at the time, most people knew it wasn't Spider-man from the 616 because the Ultimate verse was pushed at the time. Even if you did fall off the month to month Marvel made damn sure that people knew the difference between the two characters. So no people were not confused as they are now because the titles used "Ultimate Spider-man" over just "Spider-man" at the time. And keep in mind the Ultimateverse was huge at the time, especially Peter, who was seen as the best of the lot. So when Miles came in, it threw people for a loop, but not a lot of people were getting confused by the headlines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Yep. And the headline would be just as strong because, in the end, they got their Bi Superman. The only thing anyone is gonna care about is whether or not the fact that the guy currently going by Superman is
    That is always going to make headlines, regardless of whether or not it's a character that people already know is bi (though that's mostly just comic readers. Given the number of people thinking Clark's the one who came out, it's pretty clear the only ones who know Jon even exists are the ones who keep up with the books) a bi Superman is going to be the same level of "big deal".
    Exactly, I would argue more so because Jon would be seen more as a teen than a college student.

    The same way Sam Wilson (a character people have known about for decades) becoming Captain America was a big deal (and then made an even bigger deal when the MCU followed suit) because it didn't matter if this was a guy everyone already knew was black. What mattered was that this black guy was the one going by Captain America. Whether or not the new Superman is someone who's just coming out or someone who readers already know is bi, it's still gonna be a huge deal. The fact that Superman is bi is still a huge game changing deal that's gonna get Taylor and DC all the same amount of brownie points and media attention that they want, regardless of how they reached that point.[/QUOTE]

    I remember when Sam first got the title, there was cheers and there was freak, but the thing is that Marvel did something a bit smart. They let Bucky take it for a few, and then passed it to Sam, just to keep Bucky fans from flipping out. And oddly it worked a bit, because now Bucky had it for a while, didn't want to keep it, and it went to Sam as I recall. So there was less of an issue of "Bucky didn't get to have it" as he did, but he didn't want it after a while.

    I still think a younger Jon would have made a better choice for the bi aspect as it would give him time to grow into figuring out how to navigate those feelings. Vs. Just throwing him into it.

  10. #85
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    They didn’t plan for Bucky to have it first so Sam could have it later lol. Brubaker wasn’t writing BuckyCap as prep for SamCap
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I do think the Older Jon introduced by Bendis is a pretty controversial, divisive character.
    I also don't think that has much to do with his bisexuality. I don't think most average fans are really that bothered by that at all. It's cool, even, if not necessarily that exciting. I mean, to me it's a little exciting, I'm bisexual and I'm happy to see DC pushing that forward with some of their characters, though I'm happier about it for Tim Drake.

    But Kal getting pushed out of his own series is kinda wack, and honestly I haven't been fully happy with the direction of the Superman line for like half a decade now.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  12. #87
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I do think the Older Jon introduced by Bendis is a pretty controversial, divisive character.
    I also don't think that has much to do with his bisexuality. I don't think most average fans are really that bothered by that at all. It's cool, even, if not necessarily that exciting. I mean, to me it's a little exciting, I'm bisexual and I'm happy to see DC pushing that forward with some of their characters, though I'm happier about it for Tim Drake.

    But Kal getting pushed out of his own series is kinda wack, and honestly I haven't been fully happy with the direction of the Superman line for like half a decade now.
    I'm gay, I'm thrilled with having Jon come out as bi. I am still kind of grumpy about Kal losing the book to Jon, more so that he's exiled to space for a long stint to make room for Jon. Once Kal is back on Earth I'm sure that I'll feel better about things. And honestly I'm excited about all the series that we have and the ones coming. I feel like things are picking back up after the Bendis train wreck.

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