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  1. #61
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    That's not the reason..Dragon ball and z was structured around a flat arc character and goku is that.Gohan has ups and downs.He is has arcs.Him letting go had a build and conclusion(pay off).Goku requires none of that.Goku doesn't change.He changes people.
    So, you are saying Goku is the modern Spider-Man (Peter Parker) of Manga/Anime never changing on a character level but changing those around him via his actions, seems about right.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    It's seems like Jon at any age is divisive in the fandom Lol.
    He’s already acquiring the same fractured fanbase as his dad lol. But the Kid Jon fans will basically be reliant on stuff like movies/animation to get their fix since it seems Teen/Adult Jon will be sticking around for a while.
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  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    He’s already acquiring the same fractured fanbase as his dad lol. But the Kid Jon fans will basically be reliant on stuff like movies/animation to get their fix since it seems Teen/Adult Jon will be sticking around for a while.
    I wonder if there's going to be more fracture for Jon if the animated kid version takes off again. Look at Teen Titans vs the comics version at the time. A lot of readers that grew up on TT the animated series were puzzled by the comics. If DC is really going to try for sync then I expect them to either age up the kid, or drop the comic back down at some point. Really wish they would have just made him 13 or 14. You'd have your age up for YA readers, but young enough for Kid Jon fans.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    That's what they should have done from the start. Old enough to have his little romances and YA plots that DC was in such a rush for him to have (as if there isn't already a treasure trove of young heroes going through similar shit) but still young enough to be a kid and grow up the way that he should have before Bendis took a crowbar to all that.

    Hell, given how old Peter and Miles were when they started, he'd have still been old enough to possibly get away with being Superman. Though I'll always think that having Jon and Damian inheriting their father's titles by default will never not be a boring idea. Even if the real Jon never went away, I'd still be against him as Superman.
    Last edited by Blue22; 10-23-2021 at 04:18 AM.

  5. #65
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    (as if there isn't already a treasure trove of young heroes going through similar shit)
    But none of those kid were or are Superman or Superman's son. I think that's what a lot of people who bring up this argument ignore.

    It doesn't just matter that there are you g heroes going through this but also WHO they are. Some random who-gives-a-fuck Titan coming out as bi or having romances means nothing to the general public. Even the "why didn't they just make this Conner" argument misses the point. Jon is both Superman AND he's Lois and Clark's son. That sends a message and means something.

    Like PKJ said in an interview "this isn't Geo Force coming out as bi". Jon means something big, and it means something that he's Superman now and for the foreseeable future.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But none of those kid were or are Superman or Superman's son. I think that's what a lot of people who bring up this argument ignore.

    It doesn't just matter that there are you g heroes going through this but also WHO they are. Some random who-gives-a-fuck Titan coming out as bi or having romances means nothing to the general public. Even the "why didn't they just make this Conner" argument misses the point. Jon is both Superman AND he's Lois and Clark's son. That sends a message and means something.

    Like PKJ said in an interview "this isn't Geo Force coming out as bi". Jon means something big, and it means something that he's Superman now and for the foreseeable future.
    I get the point, but Geo Force is such a random character to bring up.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    But none of those kid were or are Superman or Superman's son. I think that's what a lot of people who bring up this argument ignore.

    It doesn't just matter that there are you g heroes going through this but also WHO they are. Some random who-gives-a-fuck Titan coming out as bi or having romances means nothing to the general public. Even the "why didn't they just make this Conner" argument misses the point. Jon is both Superman AND he's Lois and Clark's son. That sends a message and means something.

    Like PKJ said in an interview "this isn't Geo Force coming out as bi". Jon means something big, and it means something that he's Superman now and for the foreseeable future.
    If the only thing that sets him apart is the fact that he's Clark's kid then it's still really not worth it for me. That said, I didn't say anything about him coming out as bi. I agree that there's a difference between random Titan #3 being bi and Superman/Superboy being bi. Superman being bi is a big deal. You'll never catch me denying that. But that doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about. Nor does it...really make this Jon any more or less interesting, all things considered. He's the same recycled New 52 Clark he's always been. He just likes men and women now (but if he ever starts dating a woman you'll have scores of people shouting "queer erasure", so they might as well have just made him gay lol)

    Same with Tim Drake, honestly. All that fanfare and acting like his character is the best thing ever now and yet he's still the most superfluous member of the Batfamily. Which really hurts, honestly. I was a huge Tim fan, Pre-Flashpoint -___-
    Last edited by Blue22; 10-23-2021 at 05:46 AM.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Yeah from what I gather, that was what happened. But damn. That doesn't mean you have to almost completely bench him along with your supporting cast. I don't mind Goku staying the main character so long as he's not always the only character who matters. But thanks to the ever widening power gap, that's becoming more and more impossible.



    Yeeeeeeeeah that's what happens when you make such a mess of a character that they're basically split into two versions of themselves. You get a fandom that's just as split lol

    It's why I can't really be mad at anyone enjoying the newer Jon even though I absolutely despise him. This is a character who clearly had more than one road ahead of him in terms of storytelling and everyone seems to have their own idea on which road was the right choice. Like the big debacle going on right now with Barbara Gordon and her identities as both Oracle and Batgirl. I don't particularly mind that she's still able to suit up as Batgirl but I definitely see why that pisses some people off.
    I don't mean that. I just meant Superman having a kid is controversial. Which I didn't know about till I joined this forum.

  9. #69
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    It seems convenient to have him come out as "bi" only now that he's older. Have there been any comics that addressed gender identity for actual kids? It's not like a person hits 16 and suddenly a switch flips. You're "born this way," as the song goes. And Jonathan has had such a roller coaster timeline, it's almost meaningless to have him come out only now--how does his life story apply to real life experience?

    I find classifying him as "bi" sounds almost antiquated to my ear. We're beyond that now in popular culture. To be up to date, I would think he'd be non-binary or not tied into traditional gender roles. It feels like the comics are still behind the times. They only now are getting around to having bisexual and gay leads--they aren't ready yet for the whole rainbow.
    Never desert Alex Désert when he's eating sugary sweet dessert in the sandy desert!

  10. #70
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    If the only thing that sets him apart is the fact that he's Clark's kid then it's still really not worth it for me. That said, I didn't say anything about him coming out as bi. I agree that there's a difference between random Titan #3 being bi and Superman/Superboy being bi. Superman being bi is a big deal. You'll never catch me denying that. But that doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm talking about. Nor does it...really make this Jon any more or less interesting, all things considered. He's the same recycled New 52 Clark he's always been. He just likes men and women now (but if he ever starts dating a woman you'll have scores of people shouting "queer erasure", so they might as well have just made him gay lol)

    Same with Tim Drake, honestly. All that fanfare and acting like his character is the best thing ever now and yet he's still the most superfluous member of the Batfamily. Which really hurts, honestly. I was a huge Tim fan, Pre-Flashpoint -___-
    It does have a lot to do with what you're talking about because in order for Jon to be a bi Superman he needs to be not 10, 13, 14, or anything like that.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    It does have a lot to do with what you're talking about because in order for Jon to be a bi Superman he needs to be not 10, 13, 14, or anything like that.
    Honestly he could be 14 and still be the acting Superman in Clark's stead. Would it be what I'd want? No. But he could. Again, you got Miles and Peter who were both Spider-MAN as teenagers (Peter even goes out of his way to confirm he was 14 years old). Hell you got Jon who is currently a teenager. There's not a reason why he couldn't be Superman at that age. And even if he couldn't so what?

    He'll be the bi Superboy until he's older and (unfortunately) becomes the bi Superman. Same as before. Only difference is that DC didn't hit his adolescence like a wrecking ball and make Lois and Clark forget that they're parents in order to get him to that point.

    From a business perspective I see why DC is trying to rush this new generation into the spotlight while ignoring the hell out of Tim's (to the point where Damian is getting older while Tim is still confirmed to be 16). But as a story...this sucks. And not just Jon. I don't like any of what's being done with the 5G/Future State heroes right now. DC got me hating an entire generation when I normally LOVE legacy stuff. Save for Yara, she's great. But I have issues with her story too.

    Much like the New 52 and the DCEU, I fully understand the "Why", but that doesn't mean I'm gonna say that it doesn't suck.
    Last edited by Blue22; 10-23-2021 at 09:50 AM.

  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    I wonder if there's going to be more fracture for Jon if the animated kid version takes off again. Look at Teen Titans vs the comics version at the time. A lot of readers that grew up on TT the animated series were puzzled by the comics. If DC is really going to try for sync then I expect them to either age up the kid, or drop the comic back down at some point. Really wish they would have just made him 13 or 14. You'd have your age up for YA readers, but young enough for Kid Jon fans.
    Don’t expect a DTV to make much of an impact at all. Besides there’s already a teen Jon on the CW. It’s already happened.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  13. #73
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue22 View Post
    Honestly he could be 14 and still be the acting Superman in Clark's stead. Would it be what I'd want? No. But he could. Again, you got Miles and Peter who were both Spider-MAN as teenagers (Peter even goes out of his way to confirm he was 14 years old). Hell you got Jon who is currently a teenager. There's not a reason why he couldn't be Superman at that age. And even if he couldn't so what?

    He'll be the bi Superboy until he's older and (unfortunately) becomes the bi Superman. Same as before. Only difference is that DC didn't hit his adolescence like a wrecking ball and make Lois and Clark forget that they're parents in order to get him to that point.

    From a business perspective I see why DC is trying to rush this new generation into the spotlight while ignoring the hell out of Tim's (to the point where Damian is getting older while Tim is still confirmed to be 16). But as a story...this sucks. And not just Jon. I don't like any of what's being done with the 5G/Future State heroes right now. DC got me hating an entire generation when I normally LOVE legacy stuff. Save for Yara, she's great. But I have issues with her story too.

    Much like the New 52 and the DCEU, I fully understand the "Why", but that doesn't mean I'm gonna say that it doesn't suck.
    I have to believe that you know good and well why "Superboy comes out as bi" means FAAAAAAR less than "SUPERMAN comes out as bi"

    I mean, if you want a comparison then just look at how the "hey look Robin's bi now" got utterly ECLIPSED by Jon's news. I have friends that don't even pick up comics calling me and asking about this. My own mother was watching the news and saw this. This trended on Twitter like three different times. Tom Taylor went on the news to talk about this.

    What about Robin? A few nerds got happy or mad and now no one cares.

    As PKJ said in his interview, it means something that it's the cultural icon of SuperMAN being the one and not some random hero or even a subordinate sub version/sidekick.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I have to believe that you know good and well why "Superboy comes out as bi" means FAAAAAAR less than "SUPERMAN comes out as bi"

    I mean, if you want a comparison then just look at how the "hey look Robin's bi now" got utterly ECLIPSED by Jon's news. I have friends that don't even pick up comics calling me and asking about this. My own mother was watching the news and saw this. This trended on Twitter like three different times. Tom Taylor went on the news to talk about this.

    What about Robin? A few nerds got happy or mad and now no one cares.

    As PKJ said in his interview, it means something that it's the cultural icon of SuperMAN being the one and not some random hero or even a subordinate sub version/sidekick.
    That is because they thought it was CLARK KENT not his son because so many of the trolls only saw Superman and that was it.

    In Robin's case-folks thought it was Dick Grayson-who for the most part has not been Robin and has been present more as Nightwing outside of Titans on HBO.



    From a business perspective I see why DC is trying to rush this new generation into the spotlight while ignoring the hell out of Tim's (to the point where Damian is getting older while Tim is still confirmed to be 16).
    Because the previous head of Dc trashed not just Wally West's generation but Tim's as well.

    Two sets of fanbases told to get lost by DC.

    A new generation lead by the KIDS who actually make Batman and friends look OLDER are now taking over.

    Business wise it does not make sense because you have to INVEST in making more material for them and making the stuff with Tim and his gang moot. They are the ones with 400+ solo issues and team books.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    As PKJ said in his interview, it means something that it's the cultural icon of SuperMAN being the one and not some random hero or even a subordinate sub version/sidekick.
    But isn't it still a hedge on DC's part to do this to Clark Kent's kid instead of Clark Kent himself? PKJ has a point, but it's not one entirely being made with Superman since they just slapped that moniker on a different character.

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