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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    I doubt it was about "men can't be raped" and more like "Ollie wanted to have sex with Shado".

    It definitely adds to his character.
    Odd choice of words -- as it actually detracts from his character. Not every hero has to be a boy scout, but I don't think it was a trait that needed to be added.

  2. #32
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    I liked the explanation that J.T. Krul gave about how Ollie does it subconsciously (in part) because he learned it from his father when he was little which also explains his self-hatred.
    And now people think Moira and Malcolm Merlyn was a consistent thing.

    But I'd rather see Ollie falter and overcome that then just keep doing it.

  3. #33
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    Odd choice of words -- as it actually detracts from his character. Not every hero has to be a boy scout, but I don't think it was a trait that needed to be added.
    Yeah, I don't think making him a cheater did Ollie any favors. Frankly you're the only person I know who even suggests it. Others bring that up to, well, bring Ollie down.

    Cheating doesn't really add depth any more than any of his many other traits, and in fact kind of ruins everything else his character is about. It's a bad direction for him, just as Bruce beating Tim Drake was in King's run.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    I doubt it was about "men can't be raped" and more like "Ollie wanted to have sex with Shado".
    Given DC's history with this kind of thing, I definitely think it was the former.


    For the most part it was.
    Blackest Night is anything but. The story was basically an eight issue gore fest with comical zombies.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-20-2021 at 11:03 AM.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Yeah I’m gonna ask for this to be closed or deleted.

    My original question was never really answered, and I’m not really interested in what it’s derailed into.

  6. #36
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    We are back to chicken and egg questions.

    Does Ollie's lack of character reflect what DC Comics writers have done with him?
    Or did DC Comics writers write him that way because of his lack of character to begin with?

    Ollie has always had this irreverent whatever kind of vibe to him.
    But the various maneuvers over the years have made him not that interesting to me.
    It often makes me wonder why he and Dinah are together over the years.

    I don't think we will see a system wide reboot.
    But the Green Arrow character can use one.

  7. #37
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    Does Steve Trevor count as a civilian or simply as a non-cape?

  8. #38
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, but each time it was with a civilian. I feel like there's something there.

    (I think even he's probably considered quitting at least once).
    Even with Marianne, the lifestyle wasn't remotely normal. She almost qualified as an uncostumed sidekick. The potential was on the table, and he grabbed it.
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  9. #39
    Relaunched, not rebooted! SJNeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    Yeah I’m gonna ask for this to be closed or deleted.

    My original question was never really answered, and I’m not really interested in what it’s derailed into.
    The simplest answer to the original question is - No, at least not one of any significance.
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  10. #40
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Also, what the hell do you mean "Batman had Robin?"
    Weren't they mistaken for gay in the 1950s? That's why Batwoman and Bat-Girl were introduced.
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  11. #41
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Weren't they mistaken for gay in the 1950s? That's why Batwoman and Bat-Girl were introduced.
    They're neither civilian nor each other's love interests. The opinion of a homophobic doctor from the 50s doesn't matter.
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  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Also, what the hell do you mean "Batman had Robin?"
    lmao, did this make me crack up.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Does Felicity count? :P

    I kid.

    In the comics there was also Sandra Hawke but she is not a traditional love interest. More of a fling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    It might happen too often, but I like Ollie having cheated. He wears his heart on his sleeve more than any other hero and often goes with his gut only to regret it later. No stranger to self-loathing either. I don't need those to be his primary traits but I'm more comfortable in indulging his flaws than pretty much any other hero.
    Yeah, this. For some characters it just makes sense.

    Ollie is supposed to be a spoiled playboy who is now on a redemption arc and trying to make up for past misdeeds. A few years on an isolated island isn't going to wipe all that life long ingrained behavior away. Ollie will mess up and fall back on old behavior every now and then which he has to work to make up for. Not every hero has to be agreeable and aspirational, some are more about drama and cautionary tales.

    With some heroes, their past misbehavior (like Wally's behavior during Mike Baron's run) feel like stuff that would be better left ignored or forgotten but with Ollie, I'm okay with it because it feels more in tune with his character.

    To me Ollie only works if you make him as different from Bruce Wayne as possible. While Bruce only pretends to be a playboy and is ultimately celibate (aside from the occasional one night stand) and will only get into a serious relationship with someone whom he feels serious about, Ollie really is a playboy and enjoys sleeping around and enjoys the thrill whether it crime fighting with bows and arrows or sleeping with beautiful women. His relationship with Dinah is built on mutual physical lust rather than actual romantic love and he pats himself on the back over getting to lay with the headstrong daughter of a celebrated superhero and superhero team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I find it funny how people argue that Oliver being a cheater "makes him more complex" when the first instance of him doing that was a writer treating him being raped as consensual sex.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Retconning a rape into consensual sex because people don't think men can be raped isn't exactly the pinnacle of good writing. And considering it was revealed in a Blackest Night tie-in of all things - a book not well known for good exploration of character - I can't see how anyone could take it seriously.

    It's not Oliver cheating was always a part of his character anyway nor is it even all that complex (that word truly keeps losing more and more meaning).
    This feels like a deflection. Ollie's affairs with Joanna and Marianne are separate issue from his relationship with Shado where writers can't make up their minds on whether it was an affair or consensual sex. Marianne and Joanna were genuine affairs while Shado felt like a mistake from the writers side. You make a sympathetic anti hero like Shado a rapist and she stops being viable as a character and every story becomes about addressing that 'entanglement' and not about any other facets of her character. That's without getting into the uncomfortable 'Asian Baby Mama' stereotype that this story raises.

    Make his scene with Shado consensual and both Ollie and Dinah come out looking worse. Ollie cheating on Dinah once or twice makes for good drama but make him a serial cheater and you're in a different area altogether. At that point, Ollie goes from 'guy who messed up a few times and made amends' to a terrible human being and at that point you have to figure out whether Dinah has some kind of Stockholm syndrome or if she is just an idiot for forgiving and going back to him so many times.

    As for cheating not being a part of his character. Green Arrow started off as a Green Batman. He didn't have a personality beyond cookie cutter hero with a gimmick until O'Neill and Adams gave him a van dyke and made him socially conscious which Grell built up on even further. Him being hot headed, reckless, loud mouth and horn dog is his personality. The question is more about the extent to which writers should take their flaws. Like it makes sense for Batman to be cold and aloof but to the point of alienating his friends and allies and being a huge jerk? Nope.


    As for Ollie/Dinah, I don't see them as a forever romance. Dinah is a separate hero with her own mythology and the romance came about because she needed a companion on Earth 1. I always felt like they were both meant to break up and move on after a certain point. The idea that these two are always meant to be and to be together forever is just revisionism on the part of modern writers. It's detrimental for both characters imo.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Weren't they mistaken for gay in the 1950s? That's why Batwoman and Bat-Girl were introduced.
    Werthman was doing what Tumblr and Twitter do all time which is taken panels and scenes out of context and claim that it's 'gay' while avoiding the surrounding context of the scene. In his case, it was for bigoted reasons.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Eh, is not like Dinah is really needed to define Ollie.
    Enh, that's part of a true long term relationship. It's no longer me and you, it's us. Which from a writing perspective, means you really can't just ignore one of them.

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