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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    I think the better equivalent to females in comics is the men on the covers of romance novels. Which are just as unrealistic with the added bonus of the height factor which men can do nothing about.

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  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultimate Captain America View Post
    Four words: Political Correctness Gone Mad.
    Nah. It's just become a tool to beat and bully other people. Every institution ends up that way

  4. #19

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    By the way, here's the way that Twitter guy discovered those images (I got it in Spanish, but you probably remember or can figure it out anyway)


  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    So after reading this I get some of the complaints here, and some are just sort of weird. Let's start with the legitimate issues: Drawing a teen age girl who's only 13-16 to look like she's in her early 20s is not cool. Part of the issue is that a lot of artist for comics, especially the covers, tend to draw younger characters towards the eye of older readers rather than their age group. It's been changing, but I do see the issue here. Look at the differences in say RiRi in that one cover, vs Kamala. on her covers. The size and shape of her body is vastly different. The over for Iron heart is designed to accentuate the curves of the figure so that your eye goes to those places. Where as Kamala's covers tend to be more designed to show case her skills, or something happening in the story. You can point to how Cassie's look changed over the time she aged up in DC, and that was okay because when she was a kid of 12 or 13 she was drawn more like a younger person. I think a lot of artist can't seem to wrap their heads around drawing younger characters as younger characters and feel like they have to always go for the Hollywood 20 year old plays teen.

    So in this case I can see the issue. Younger readers, middle grade to YA want to see characters that look like they do, or at least look around their age. They are bombarded with 20 somethings pretending to be teens all the time, so for art a lot want to have looks closer to who they are physically. That doesn't mean un attractive, just not looking like someone's ideal pinup art. And that's fine for an artbook or a fan art piece, but covers should be more connected to what you're going to see on the inside of the book.

    Regarding the issue of double standards. You can really point to the opposite happening when it comes to games and manga for girls. When it comes to exaggerated hot looks, typically you'll see tall lanker, I guess, model like characters for the guys. Not overly muscular per say but well defined. The Robins, Miles, I would say most of the teen heroes of DC and Marvel, tend to be drawn more toward the female eye in a lot of cases.

    I would agree that some of the female heroes should have more muscles on them, depending on their type of fighting, same with the guys.

    On the other hand I disagree about the issue with the animation. First a style has to be established, so all of them are going to look the same if they're rendered in one style. You can't escape that unless you have like three or four styles going on, and then they have to harmonize in looks or else it will not look good on screen and become jarring. I get the issue of same face, but a lot of artist have that issue because there are only so many face styles out there. And if you have a lot of characters to draw, then you need to have something that you can do over and over with a deadline and easier to animate smoothly.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    So after reading this I get some of the complaints here, and some are just sort of weird. Let's start with the legitimate issues: Drawing a teen age girl who's only 13-16 to look like she's in her early 20s is not cool. Part of the issue is that a lot of artist for comics, especially the covers, tend to draw younger characters towards the eye of older readers rather than their age group. It's been changing, but I do see the issue here. Look at the differences in say RiRi in that one cover, vs Kamala. on her covers. The size and shape of her body is vastly different. The over for Iron heart is designed to accentuate the curves of the figure so that your eye goes to those places. Where as Kamala's covers tend to be more designed to show case her skills, or something happening in the story. You can point to how Cassie's look changed over the time she aged up in DC, and that was okay because when she was a kid of 12 or 13 she was drawn more like a younger person. I think a lot of artist can't seem to wrap their heads around drawing younger characters as younger characters and feel like they have to always go for the Hollywood 20 year old plays teen.

    So in this case I can see the issue. Younger readers, middle grade to YA want to see characters that look like they do, or at least look around their age. They are bombarded with 20 somethings pretending to be teens all the time, so for art a lot want to have looks closer to who they are physically. That doesn't mean un attractive, just not looking like someone's ideal pinup art. And that's fine for an artbook or a fan art piece, but covers should be more connected to what you're going to see on the inside of the book.

    Regarding the issue of double standards. You can really point to the opposite happening when it comes to games and manga for girls. When it comes to exaggerated hot looks, typically you'll see tall lanker, I guess, model like characters for the guys. Not overly muscular per say but well defined. The Robins, Miles, I would say most of the teen heroes of DC and Marvel, tend to be drawn more toward the female eye in a lot of cases.

    I would agree that some of the female heroes should have more muscles on them, depending on their type of fighting, same with the guys.

    On the other hand I disagree about the issue with the animation. First a style has to be established, so all of them are going to look the same if they're rendered in one style. You can't escape that unless you have like three or four styles going on, and then they have to harmonize in looks or else it will not look good on screen and become jarring. I get the issue of same face, but a lot of artist have that issue because there are only so many face styles out there. And if you have a lot of characters to draw, then you need to have something that you can do over and over with a deadline and easier to animate smoothly.
    The connection of teens being drawn the way they are here w/ older people playing teens in media is a great angle.I do agree that they shouldn't be but as many rightfully pointed out social media full of the same age range(around 16+) of people wearing and looking similar to the art here so IDK...
    Not to mention the argument looses a lot of steam when 1)teen guys are over-sexualized here and even in the MCU and it's normalized and same people pretend/outright state that that's okay
    2)Same people also criticize artists for adult women being drawn attractive for example recently w/ JSC

    https://twitter.com/karazorlls/statu...23138918928399

    This is a very mild but recent example.This makes it feel like it's more a case of not wanting attractive women in media rather than the age being the issue, the latter I feel is much more valid but is overshadowed by the former.

    Agreed, only they never acknowledge it and say it's for men.I'm not joking the guy in the discussion said Men draw men like that for them and they(women) don't ever want it, has a lot of likes as well all and people liking literally have over-sexualized art of men on their feed and are drooling on them in their replies....

    Yeah, many of them partake in intense physical activity way too much to not.

    Perfectly said, same w/ a comic book artists as well IMO.They have tight deadlines and can't make as much diff. as they like in the first place not to mention perfecting one style which is theirs is better than dabbling in multiple IMO.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 10-23-2021 at 02:09 AM.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    So recently came across this and wanted to know what you think about it:-

    https://twitter.com/thewitchersbian/...95170518523905
    Well, to address the overall issue: comic books do have a problem with oversexualizing female characters. The best way anyone has every explained it to me is that men are drawn in ways that appeal to men while women are also drawn in ways that appeal to men. It's only relatively recently that comics have begun moving past this trend.

    If all men were drawn in ways that appeal to women specifically they'll probably look like characters in a Shojou manga or any one of CLAMP's 'pretty boy' characters.

    That said, there is a difference between sexualizing and tasteful depiction of the human body. Artists like Frank Cho, Adam Hughes, Stephane Roux are clearly aiming for titillation while artists like John Romita Jr and John Busecma are going for the tasteful depiction of the human form.

    For the pics posted in the tweet, yeah, I can see the issue in the fourth one. She may as well be wearing body paint in a uniform like that. The first three however, well, if they were meant to titillate, then they're doing a pretty bad job of it. And really, how do you expect the human body to look like while posing and in clothes like that? There is nothing wrong with the clothes or the poses themselves. Even the clothes aren't that far away from what I've seen teenagers wear these days. This particular example is almost puritanical. I imagine if an artist went to a con and made accurate drawing of the girls posing with Tom Holland or Chris Evans for a photo op, the person who made that original tweeter would be accusing the artist of 'sexualizing' teenagers.

    Nothing about the human body is 'inherently' sexual.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Well, to address the overall issue: comic books do have a problem with oversexualizing female characters. The best way anyone has every explained it to me is that men are drawn in ways that appeal to men while women are also drawn in ways that appeal to men. It's only relatively recently that comics have begun moving past this trend.

    If all men were drawn in ways that appeal to women specifically they'll probably look like characters in a Shojou manga or any one of CLAMP's 'pretty boy' characters.

    That said, there is a difference between sexualizing and tasteful depiction of the human body. Artists like Frank Cho, Adam Hughes, Stephane Roux are clearly aiming for titillation while artists like John Romita Jr and John Busecma are going for the tasteful depiction of the human form.

    For the pics posted in the tweet, yeah, I can see the issue in the fourth one. She may as well be wearing body paint in a uniform like that. The first three however, well, if they were meant to titillate, then they're doing a pretty bad job of it. And really, how do you expect the human body to look like while posing and in clothes like that? There is nothing wrong with the clothes or the poses themselves. Even the clothes aren't that far away from what I've seen teenagers wear these days. This particular example is almost puritanical. I imagine if an artist went to a con and made accurate drawing of the girls posing with Tom Holland or Chris Evans for a photo op, the person who made that original tweeter would be accusing the artist of 'sexualizing' teenagers.

    Nothing about the human body is 'inherently' sexual.
    See I would have agreed a while back but now I feel that's BS, got the same explanation of men being drawn this way for men but it feels like deflecting.You're telling me men being attractive in media to standards that are biologically impossible is what men want, yet women(a vocal minority) don't want attractive women in media?
    The diff. in their appeal is the diff. in what's attractive in men vs. women, men and women have diff. (conventional)attractive features hence over-s*xualized in those manners.
    The women I've talked to say that it sets a beauty standard they can't reach, which I get can be harmful but it's a drawing, no one expects them to look anywhere to close to artwork.My question then is why don't men in general feel threatend by unreachable standards in these medias?Is it being more secure?Understanding that it's fantasy fiction?IDK but there def. a diff. in reaction to the fictional art and not the art over-s*xualising the 2 groups to diff. degrees IMO.

    Not to mention characters like Nigtwing and Spider-man who are blatantly over s*xualized for stuff like their butt that these same people eat right up.Argument looses a lot of steam after that.

    Male models who appeal to women aren't of the pretty boy archetype.And the argument looses steam when so many of them are drooling over over-s*xualized art of men like the shirtless covers of robins we got, it's proof directly contradicting their own statement.

    Every comic of Spider-man, nightwing, superman ,etc. is them wearing basically body paint but I agree w/ what you say here.

    Thanks for the insight

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Seren's Avatar
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    I don't mind my favorite female characters being sexy or beautiful. But my problem comes from when that's the only way they are drawn. I've seen people complain when female characters aren't drawn like a pin-up model in every single panel they're shown in and that's the problem. God forbid a female character has a grimace on their face or look a little out of sorts for whatever reason.


    And yeah, maybe the male characters get some of the same treatment, Nightwing most noticeably, but it's no where near as to the extent that female characters get. That said, it HAS improved, but there's a long way to go.

    Look, we're all allowed to be thirsty, but sometimes I just want to see a lady kicking ass and taking names and all the ugly things that go with it. It doesn't have to be all T & A all the time.
    Last edited by Seren; 10-23-2021 at 12:34 PM.
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren View Post
    I don't mind my favorite female characters being sexy or beautiful. But my problem comes from when that's the only way they are drawn. I've seen people complain when female characters aren't drawn like a pin-up model in every single panel they're shown in and that's the problem. God forbid a female character has a grimace on their face or look a little out of sorts for whatever reason.


    And yeah, maybe the male characters get some of the same treatment, Nightwing most noticeably, but it's no where near as to the extent that female characters get. That said, it HAS improved, but there's a long way to go.

    Look, we're all allowed to be thirsty, but sometimes I just want to see a lady kicking ass and taking names and all the ugly things that go with it. It doesn't have to be all T & A all the time.
    Absolutely, I think the recent Storm SWORD issue did this well, no one expects/should expect characters to look stunning while fighting for their life, getting put through the ringer should show on them.

    This argument is based a lot more on cover art IMO, interiors are many times rushed or just weird anyway which you just have to look past.

    I think it gets a bit ridiculous when people complain about super models in skin tight suits looking attractive on covers.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seren View Post
    I don't mind my favorite female characters being sexy or beautiful. But my problem comes from when that's the only way they are drawn. I've seen people complain when female characters aren't drawn like a pin-up model in every single panel they're shown in and that's the problem. God forbid a female character has a grimace on their face or look a little out of sorts for whatever reason.


    And yeah, maybe the male characters get some of the same treatment, Nightwing most noticeably, but it's no where near as to the extent that female characters get. That said, it HAS improved, but there's a long way to go.

    Look, we're all allowed to be thirsty, but sometimes I just want to see a lady kicking ass and taking names and all the ugly things that go with it. It doesn't have to be all T & A all the time.
    It's weird to see a bunch of comments acting like political correctness is oppressing men when women have been poorly portrayed in comics and other media for decades. Why is anyone looking for comics to satiate their sexual desires? There are a bunch of websites for that.

    And John Venus brought up a good point about male sexualization still being from a male point of view. They're not drawn how women would like them because women haven't had much of a saw. And Venus is also right about the body not being in any way inherently sexual, because it isn't.

  12. #27
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom'nGloom View Post
    My guess is to make him seem physically intimidating as he's usually depicted as an antagonist to the heroes. Other than that I have no idea.
    Yeah, it's not like we see Magneto working out or anything. I think there was one comic where he was drawn more realistically and was more on the chunky side and not so muscular. Maybe not as much as Doc Ock but something like that.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    So recently came across this and wanted to know what you think about it:-

    https://twitter.com/thewitchersbian/...95170518523905

    Also another discussion in which I was involved that I would like to know what you all think about

    Main tweet -> https://twitter.com/zatannafilm/stat...13203587649538

    Discussion starts here-> https://twitter.com/THEB4TMANS/statu...13532135989249

    I thought it was genuinely interesting until the other person unironically said "Men r trash"
    I just saw it as female fans critiquing how women are drawn in comics and animation.

    It's not a big deal to me because it's a worthwhile discussion to have.

    PS. I don't accept Bitcoin .
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 10-24-2021 at 09:31 AM.

  14. #29

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    Comics artists have always had an issue drawing teens accurate to their age. And sometimes draw babies as creepy mini adults instead of with child-like features.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  15. #30

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    Superhero comics have always been mainly for a male public. It's for a simple reason: superhero fiction is a subgenre of action fiction. There are some other genres mixed as well, such as science fiction and fantasy, but action is the big one. And action is not appealing for female public, they prefer fiction about personal relations.

    Are comics made for a male audience? OF COURSE. That's basic marketing. Adjusting a product for an audience that wouldn't consume it anyway would be suicidal. The only valid reason for comic books to stop including sexual content is if their audience lost the interest in it.

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