Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 28
  1. #1
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,966

    Default My problem with marvels female “derivatives” in recent years.

    Characters like She hulk and X-23. I feel Marvel is removing everything that made them unique and instead just making them only female versions of their male counterparts. Anyone else see this as an issue.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 10-21-2021 at 05:25 AM.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    5,662

    Default

    Yeah, although she hulk seems to be getting back to how she was before the change.
    These 2 are great legacy character but recently became just female versions of the originals.

    I personally prefer legacies that vary from the original like Original She hulk and Miguel O'hara etc. as compared to Laura(as Wolvie) and Miles.The latter are way too similar to the originals while the former have traits in common w/ the original but are unique enough to be different and interesting.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    South Italy near Naples
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Yeah, although she hulk seems to be getting back to how she was before the change.
    These 2 are great legacy character but recently became just female versions of the originals.

    I personally prefer legacies that vary from the original like Original She hulk and Miguel O'hara etc. as compared to Laura(as Wolvie) and Miles.The latter are way too similar to the originals while the former have traits in common w/ the original but are unique enough to be different and interesting.
    You know Spiderfan you really highlighted something I was searching word for.
    Legacy characters and simple derivations are two different things, and I think I should thank you for that.

  4. #4
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Carmel Valley, CA
    Posts
    7,313

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Characters like She hulk and X-23. I feel Marvel is removing everything that made them unique and instead just making them only female versions of their male counterparts. Anyone else see this as an issue.
    To my mind they were intended to be female versions of male characters all along. This isn't new and they're not the only ones. Right, Carol Danvers? And it's not even unique to Marvel. Right, Mary Marvel, Power Girl, Supergirl and Batgirl???

    At the end of the day, this is just another way of showing that original concepts are few and far in between in comics. If it's not the female versions of male characters, it's the endless number of derivative characters. Right, Thunderstrike?

    And why stop there? The so-called "homage" characters come to mind as well. They're really just a way for one company to copy another company's character and use them as they please, smiling all the while. Right, Deadpool?

    Honestly, folks, we're waaaaay past getting upset over something that is the hallmark and life's pseudo-blood of the institution. You can call for change, but don't expect anyone that is filling their pockets based on these practices to hear you.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    4,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    To my mind they were intended to be female versions of male characters all along. This isn't new and they're not the only ones. Right, Carol Danvers? And it's not even unique to Marvel. Right, Mary Marvel, Power Girl, Supergirl and Batgirl???

    At the end of the day, this is just another way of showing that original concepts are few and far in between in comics. If it's not the female versions of male characters, it's the endless number of derivative characters. Right, Thunderstrike?

    And why stop there? The so-called "homage" characters come to mind as well. They're really just a way for one company to copy another company's character and use them as they please, smiling all the while. Right, Deadpool?

    Honestly, folks, we're waaaaay past getting upset over something that is the hallmark and life's pseudo-blood of the institution. You can call for change, but don't expect anyone that is filling their pockets based on these practices to hear you.
    The question is if it's an interesting character, and that's where a lot of derivates fail... they're just "x but with a green hat"

    Part of why I like Silk... weird character concept, but... she's unique. She's not "Spider-Man but in white costume".

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,506

    Default

    It's all very unnatural and editorially based Look at Hulk and Wolverine, neither Bruce or Logan would want anyone following in their footsteps, much less anyone they care about. They both walk unhappy paths explicitly "damned" in certain runs. There is also no need to replace them as they are both effectively or literally immortal.

    But their was an editorial mandate to replace them and so you have other characters taking their *mantles* (Hulk doesn't wear a shirt much less a mantle) by characters that should be more than aware that neither man would ever want them too.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    With the Orishas
    Posts
    8,832

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Characters like She hulk and X-23. I feel Marvel is removing everything that made them unique and instead just making them only female versions of their male counterparts. Anyone else see this as an issue.
    I agree.

    It's like the writers are trying a bit too hard to make "statements" that they simply turn them into their male counterparts.

    The She-Hulk example was really problematic on a number of different levels that I don't want to get into.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    4,940

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    It's all very unnatural and editorially based Look at Hulk and Wolverine, neither Bruce or Logan would want anyone following in their footsteps, much less anyone they care about. They both walk unhappy paths explicitly "damned" in certain runs. There is also no need to replace them as they are both effectively or literally immortal.

    But their was an editorial mandate to replace them and so you have other characters taking their *mantles* (Hulk doesn't wear a shirt much less a mantle) by characters that should be more than aware that neither man would ever want them too.
    I suspect the real-world reason could be a matter of copyright law. :/ The Mouse can't prevent them from becoming public domain eventually. Soo... kill them off and replace them every few decades.

  9. #9
    Fantastic Member Grapeweasel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    413

    Default

    They're only trying to sell comics here.

    If a characterization doesn't pay off they try different things until it does.

  10. #10
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    South Italy near Naples
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeweasel View Post
    They're only trying to sell comics here.

    If a characterization doesn't pay off they try different things until it does.
    This is a sad truth tha to celebrate a while is worth remembering/reminding about form of commercial medium (like TV cinema or comic in this case) the primary need is to sell it to the viewers....if it is artistically worth come second(to be honest book and printing market even more than video try to hold multiple balls in the air...and succeeding only in limited amount compared to what is printed daily in the world)

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    5,662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    You know Spiderfan you really highlighted something I was searching word for.
    Legacy characters and simple derivations are two different things, and I think I should thank you for that.
    Anytime

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    The question is if it's an interesting character, and that's where a lot of derivates fail... they're just "x but with a green hat"

    Part of why I like Silk... weird character concept, but... she's unique. She's not "Spider-Man but in white costume".
    Absolutely, legacy characters should always be unique.

    Silk has a lot of potential, but her solos haven't lived up to it YET.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    It's all very unnatural and editorially based Look at Hulk and Wolverine, neither Bruce or Logan would want anyone following in their footsteps, much less anyone they care about. They both walk unhappy paths explicitly "damned" in certain runs. There is also no need to replace them as they are both effectively or literally immortal.

    But their was an editorial mandate to replace them and so you have other characters taking their *mantles* (Hulk doesn't wear a shirt much less a mantle) by characters that should be more than aware that neither man would ever want them too.
    Again on point, even w/ others like Spider-man Miguel being a Spider-man from the far future works and he's unique as well.Mayday in MC2 also works because of her dynamic/relation w/ Peter himself and how she's diff. than him w/ same core values.
    Miles reads as a Teen Pete and it's pretty OOC for Peter to let a teen use that name which attracts a lot of harm w/out mentoring him.You either have him disagree w/ Miles being Spidey in 616 and rightfully so or have him be a(over)protective mentor figure, what we have rn makes little sense IMO.
    Same w/ Logan and Hulk as you mentioned.Heck most heroes would never want anyone to follow in their footsteps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I agree.

    It's like the writers are trying a bit too hard to make "statements" that they simply turn them into their male counterparts.

    The She-Hulk example was really problematic on a number of different levels that I don't want to get into.
    This, and the thing is I feel it's actually kinda demeaning.All these female/LGBTQ+/POC legacy characters are offered to us as being progressive and a great achievement but they are all using the legacies created by straight white males.Characters like Capt. America I get, it's a mantle but others like Spider-man,DD aren't.

    I mean they should focus on giving us Original diverse characters instead of ones using previous mantels , it's pretty meta as well since none of the sparse diverse OC's they have made succeed and they need the basically ride the coattails of the Originals instead of paving their own way like originals did.

    I mean when we see a diverse character make his own mark and have others follow in their footsteps I'd say that's a win.Black Panther for one is someone who is a self made hero and a great example of how diverse characters should be made.Luke Cage as well.

    Only time legacies made me feel they made their mark were future ones where the heroes were kinda like myths, hence giving them the chance to re-define said myth in their own way.Miguel and Terry did a great job at this.I'd say Kamala Khan is the best current time 616 legacy character we have, she does everything right in terms of being a legacy whereas someone like Miles does everything wrong legacy wise.Elektra as DD is a great "legacy" if you can call it that as well.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 10-23-2021 at 01:53 AM.

  12. #12

    Default

    Don't forget that when She-Hulk was first created, she was just a blatant female version of Hulk (when she gets angry she becomes a strong monster). What we now know as "classic She-Hulk" was a later development, as they took that basic derivative character and turned it into a character of its own.


  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    2,338

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Characters like She hulk and X-23. I feel Marvel is removing everything that made them unique and instead just making them only female versions of their male counterparts. Anyone else see this as an issue.
    This is kind of dicey. Think of every hero at Marvel as a soda. Think of the original as the original flavor and then go from there.

    Spider-Man is classic Coca-Cola.

    Miles is cherry Coca-Cola.

    Spiderwoman is Lime Coca-Cola

    Captain Marvel is Mello Yellow Zero
    Last edited by Anthony W; 10-23-2021 at 08:57 AM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    5,662

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    This is kind of dicey. Think of every hero at Marvel as a soda. Think of the original as the original flavor and then go from there.

    Spider-Man is classic Coca-Cola.

    Miles is cherry Coca-Cola.

    Spiderwoman is Lime Coca-Cola

    Captain Marvel is Mello Yellow Zero
    I think OP means they are taking away the special flavors that made those character what they were and instead making them more like the original e.x. She hulk recently and Laura in the current X-men run.

    Spider-woman is vastly diff. to the point I'd say she's just using the same brand but flavor is completely diff.(a good thing), Silk/Miguel seems like someone w/ similar flavors but there own twist, Miles is basically a diluted original w/ very small twists and then Spider-man would be the original.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,379

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Spider-woman is vastly diff. to the point I'd say she's just using the same brand but flavor is completely diff.(a good thing), Silk/Miguel seems like someone w/ similar flavors but there own twist, Miles is basically a diluted original w/ very small twists and then Spider-man would be the original.
    One thing I liked about Jessica Drew (and later, Julia Carpenter) is that they were *so* different, powers-wise, and in their origins, than Spider-Man, which made them feel nicely *not* derivative, despite the derivative names. Julia's powers even tying together (the same psi-force that allows her to throw 'webs' also anchors her to walls and allows her to cling and swing? Cool!) made it even more elegant feeling to me than Jessica's kinda random collection of flight, super-strength, wall-climbing, pheremones and 'venom blasts.'

    As much as I like the *idea* of Silk, and find her a fun character, both in her solo stories and in Agents of Atlas, I find her 'just like Spider-Man' origin to be utterly bland. Even worse, she's like a Daken, all the powers of the original, plus some other crap. (organic webs, just like Daken is 'Wolverine + pheremones,' I like even less when the new, new version has all the original's powers, and more stuff!)

    I love a good twist. Finding out that 'Hulkling' is a shapeshifting Skrull with some enhanced strength from his super-strong Kree dad? So much more interesting than 'got a blood transfusion from He-Hulk.'

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •