Page 1 of 9 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 123
  1. #1
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    460

    Default Why is it so hard to really do anything good with Tim Drake now a days?

    I have read some old stuff from Knightquest and No Man's Land and I have to say it's a far better take on Tim than what modern portrayals have done. He's really not that interesting I mean yeah he's smart but aside from being upbeat and whatever he's not really doing anything. Recently he's been a duck and while funny it wasn't memorable and I feel like fans hate on Damien because the writers often neglect Tim. Honestly the best direction I've seen done with Tim is what Batman Beyond Return of the Joker did. I know some might not like it but Tim being the "light" or whatever is what makes him having such a tremendous fall from grace so good. Essentially I'd like to see Tim become proof about Joker's One Bad Day line.

    For me I'd like to see Tim make a critical mistake that could have happened to anyone but for it to get him caught by a regular psycho and held prisoner and for the Bat Family to shake down the major players searching but to over look the one person who actually has Tim because he's a nobody. I think that'd be interesting especially if it took a very real approach and showed Tim slowly lose hope and his mind. Only to be found by chance in ACE Chemicals of all places but far to late in a confrontation where he attempts to escape and in a fit of panic stabs a friend of his by accident(mistaking him/her for his captor) and freaks when Bruce sees running away and going into the chemicals like Joker.

    I just like this idea because it'd show a lot of the dangers being a vigilante can really have especially by having a regular person capture and torture Tim. I also like the idea of Tim giving into fear and panic and acting out of blind fear as well. I think Tim would be a good threat to the Bat Family especially as I can see him dividing the BatFam like one side wanting to take him out the other side wanting to help him. I can also see Tim becoming the Loki of the Family and roasting them individually even himself I also like the idea of him roasting heroes and the legal system.

    I can see Tim as a killer targeting criminals at first making it look like he's trying to be like Jason and then shocking Bruce by killing innocent civilians and saying to Bruce "Really are you surprised I mean how little do you really value the lives of criminals that'd you'd over look me killing some scum bags but not civilians? Guess your cod only matters when it suits you." Essentially I like the idea of a Law Abiding Citizen story arc where Tim actively tries to get the Bat Fam to go against their beliefs and completely tears them apart in the process as well as permanently damaging Batman's relationship with the GCPD.

    Now the reason I like that idea is Bruce does let killing slide which diminishes his code he let's Jason and Damien get away with killing and his hypocrisy is never addressed. I also like the idea of Jason being put on the spot by another fallen Robin since Jason started out as a rebel but despite everything he's back to taking orders from Bruce. Same with Dick he left to become his own man but came right back and it's just really tiresome so it'd be fun to see Tim break the mold and become estranged but not really go back to being part of the family. That's kind of why I like the idea of him being the Loki of the BatFam. Also it'd make for a tragic story for Tim to be hell bent on committing suicide by Bat to make a point of some kind.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    8,335

    Default

    He's already shown the danger, lost his hope and mind when his family and friends drop dead like dominoes. He doesn't need another one.

    Also, if you make him start killing criminals, all the fans gonna call him is Jason 2.0. now that Jason swore off killing, especially if it's also caused by Joker.

    His boyfriend is mysteriously capable. Let's just start there for now. It's not like he has a series yet, so starting small is fine. Then we can take him out of Gotham. If they are unwilling to make Nightwing a traveling hero, Tim could be one.

  3. #3
    Fantastic Member Castiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    460

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    He's already shown the danger, lost his hope and mind when his family and friends drop dead like dominoes. He doesn't need another one.

    Also, if you make him start killing criminals, all the fans gonna call him is Jason 2.0. now that Jason swore off killing, especially if it's also caused by Joker.

    His boyfriend is mysteriously capable. Let's just start there for now. It's not like he has a series yet, so starting small is fine. Then we can take him out of Gotham. If they are unwilling to make Nightwing a traveling hero, Tim could be one.
    Never said the Joker would be involved in fact I wouldn't want him to be that'd ruin the point of a ordinary psycho causing his One Bad Day.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    1,450

    Default

    I haven't been following comics for many months now, but given the current size of the Bat-Family, I'd chalk at least some of down to the law of diminishing returns. It's hard to stand-out in a crowd, and it gets harder the larger the crowd gets. Doing something to make him stand-out is tricky as well, because many points of difference have already been done with other Bat-Family members - and chances are high you just double-up.

    As for the idea of having Tim kill innocents, I think that would devastate his fanbase.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    4,086

    Default

    DC ruined Tim in 2004-2005 in War Games, Identity Crisis, and Infinite Crisis. The appeal of the character was that he was the normal one, the one who had to worry about school and keeping his identity a secret from his own father. By killing off or writing out his supporting cast, especially his father, and turning him into a mini Bruce they also killed off what made him stand out and a unique character. Since then he's just been another genius detective/hacker in a world where everyone is a genius detective/hacker, and the only value he has as a character is as Stephanie Brown's love interest.

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    7,525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    DC ruined Tim in 2004-2005 in War Games, Identity Crisis, and Infinite Crisis.
    And the new 52 made it even worse by removing all his supporting cast and his incanations of YJ and TT from continuity.

    Those are of course back now, problem is now just that this made his continuity super messy, and it is really hard to tell what is and what isn't continuity. And that is really a problem that used to be as conneced with other characters as Tim.

  7. #7
    Spectacular Member agentofthebat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    150

    Default

    Thats the Tim Drake I know from back in the day. I really never go into the newer Tim Drake. Still a Dick Grayson and Jean Paul Valley guy.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Manchester UK
    Posts
    3,486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    I have read some old stuff from Knightquest and No Man's Land and I have to say it's a far better take on Tim than what modern portrayals have done. He's really not that interesting I mean yeah he's smart but aside from being upbeat and whatever he's not really doing anything. Recently he's been a duck and while funny it wasn't memorable and I feel like fans hate on Damien because the writers often neglect Tim. Honestly the best direction I've seen done with Tim is what Batman Beyond Return of the Joker did. I know some might not like it but Tim being the "light" or whatever is what makes him having such a tremendous fall from grace so good. Essentially I'd like to see Tim become proof about Joker's One Bad Day line.

    For me I'd like to see Tim make a critical mistake that could have happened to anyone but for it to get him caught by a regular psycho and held prisoner and for the Bat Family to shake down the major players searching but to over look the one person who actually has Tim because he's a nobody. I think that'd be interesting especially if it took a very real approach and showed Tim slowly lose hope and his mind. Only to be found by chance in ACE Chemicals of all places but far to late in a confrontation where he attempts to escape and in a fit of panic stabs a friend of his by accident(mistaking him/her for his captor) and freaks when Bruce sees running away and going into the chemicals like Joker.

    I just like this idea because it'd show a lot of the dangers being a vigilante can really have especially by having a regular person capture and torture Tim. I also like the idea of Tim giving into fear and panic and acting out of blind fear as well. I think Tim would be a good threat to the Bat Family especially as I can see him dividing the BatFam like one side wanting to take him out the other side wanting to help him. I can also see Tim becoming the Loki of the Family and roasting them individually even himself I also like the idea of him roasting heroes and the legal system.

    I can see Tim as a killer targeting criminals at first making it look like he's trying to be like Jason and then shocking Bruce by killing innocent civilians and saying to Bruce "Really are you surprised I mean how little do you really value the lives of criminals that'd you'd over look me killing some scum bags but not civilians? Guess your cod only matters when it suits you." Essentially I like the idea of a Law Abiding Citizen story arc where Tim actively tries to get the Bat Fam to go against their beliefs and completely tears them apart in the process as well as permanently damaging Batman's relationship with the GCPD.

    Now the reason I like that idea is Bruce does let killing slide which diminishes his code he let's Jason and Damien get away with killing and his hypocrisy is never addressed. I also like the idea of Jason being put on the spot by another fallen Robin since Jason started out as a rebel but despite everything he's back to taking orders from Bruce. Same with Dick he left to become his own man but came right back and it's just really tiresome so it'd be fun to see Tim break the mold and become estranged but not really go back to being part of the family. That's kind of why I like the idea of him being the Loki of the BatFam. Also it'd make for a tragic story for Tim to be hell bent on committing suicide by Bat to make a point of some kind.
    Tim the boy wasn't Batman's light. The belief/idea is that Robin is Batman's light

    We've seen Tim act out of fear/panic and fail. He became a fascist.

    We've seen rational Tim on a normal day is perfect A O K working with a fascist

    We did have Tim become a bad guy except he didn't just kill criminals. he became a Killer evil batman who shot Bruce. Pretty sure Tim did the whole dual gun-fu thing before Jason.





    We had a lot of what you suggest happen as recent as Rebirth. Heck Tynion had planned for Tim [going by the name Saviour] to become a big bad for bats in a lengthy arc but that was cut to the much shorter Tec arc following his return from prison.

    Rebirth TT did the evil Tim divides the teams loyalty plot.

    I enjoyed the evil Tim plot but I'm sure it would piss his fans off if Saviour becomes his new status quo. It would give him a niche now that Jason has returned to the fold.

    Tim was always more of a solo hero even when he was Robin so him currently being Nightwing's sidekick? Robin's sub/cover? whatever he currently is is a regression.

    Tim was a normal kid with a decent bright future ahead of him so him becoming the bad guy with a dark and brutal future will serve as commentary on the pitfalls of vigilantism.

    It also makes a statement about what Robin is for. What are the consequences of putting a minor in a role that forces tham to be responsible for ensuring a grown man doesn't go over board? Is it worth risking any child's future? [dark and uncertain like the Dick, Jay, Steph, Damian/ bright and full of hope like Tim's]

    Did batman in his period of grief make a horrible mistake by making Tim Robin.

    Making Tim the tragic Robin who turned out to be Batman's biggest mistake is different and bold. I like it. he wanted to be batman's light and ended up consumed by darkness.
    Last edited by Fergus; 10-25-2021 at 05:53 AM.

  9. #9
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The Mothcave
    Posts
    2,225

    Default

    Unfortunately, Damian is Robin which makes Tim kind of redundant so he isn't getting the spotlight.

    The other Robins also now have simple to grasp gimmicks; Dick was first, Jason died, Damian is Bruce's biological son, Carrie was the first girl (who stuck), Steph was the first girl in mainline continuity.

    Tim has lots of character, headlined the first and still longest running Robin solo and led a whole generation of heroes (who only recently returned properly), but in Batman's corner of the DCU he's just mostly treated as the guy before Damian.

    Without a solo book to highlight what makes Tim special, he's kind of the just another Robin. It's a real shame, I was a big fan of Tim but he hasn't really felt like Tim since before Battle for the Cowl.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    5,677

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Unfortunately, Damian is Robin which makes Tim kind of redundant so he isn't getting the spotlight.

    The other Robins also now have simple to grasp gimmicks; Dick was first, Jason died, Damian is Bruce's biological son, Carrie was the first girl (who stuck), Steph was the first girl in mainline continuity.

    Tim has lots of character, headlined the first and still longest running Robin solo and led a whole generation of heroes (who only recently returned properly), but in Batman's corner of the DCU he's just mostly treated as the guy before Damian.

    Without a solo book to highlight what makes Tim special, he's kind of the just another Robin. It's a real shame, I was a big fan of Tim but he hasn't really felt like Tim since before Battle for the Cowl.
    They could give him a red robin series, but then you just have another directline batbook. Being in gotham all the time means he would have to endure frequent crossovers muddying his storyline. We are also in the middle of a regime change, with a new batman entering should tim partner up with tim???? probably not. I honestly wish he would take the reigns of that new teen titans team, if just for a year

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    7,525

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Being in gotham all the time means he would have to endure frequent crossovers muddying his storyline.
    In most cases that boils down to one tie in issue per year, that's usually a big problem story wise.

    I think in most cases were a event really caused a big change of the status quo of a book, it was usually because the writer wanted to do it and not because he had to.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,794

    Default

    Why is it so hard to really do anything good with Tim Drake now a days?

    As difficult as this may be to believe, Tim Drake's sidelining by DC may not be entirely intentional.

    DC has about 10, 000 characters...and they do a very poor job of IP management.

    Thousands of characters sit on a shelf in limbo. New characters are created...and they will join the 1000s in limbo.

    I have no idea why TPTB cannot give Tim a new alias and costume...other than they are simply incapable.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Manchester UK
    Posts
    3,486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Why is it so hard to really do anything good with Tim Drake now a days?

    As difficult as this may be to believe, Tim Drake's sidelining by DC may not be entirely intentional.

    DC has about 10, 000 characters...and they do a very poor job of IP management.

    Thousands of characters sit on a shelf in limbo. New characters are created...and they will join the 1000s in limbo.

    I have no idea why TPTB cannot give Tim a new alias and costume...other than they are simply incapable.
    The truth is that Tim has never been sidelined by DC. The opposite. Just because the many many many directions they've taken with Tim haven't been successful or as successful as when the character was at his peak doesn't mean DC hasn't kept investing and trying.

    His inability to move on and find a new identity is in large part the fault of the DC being staffed by a lot of people who grew up with Tim as their Robin. Bendis, Tynion, Taylor 3 prominent figures who have all proclaimed their fondness for the character and 3 writers who have recently leaned in on 90's RobinTim nostalgia as Kino.

    It's hard to make a clean break when writers won't let readers move on.
    Last edited by Fergus; 10-25-2021 at 08:22 AM.

  14. #14
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    75,322

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    The truth is that Tim has never been sidelined by DC. The opposite. Just because the many many many directions they've taken with Tim haven't been successful or as successful as when the character was at his peak doesn't mean DC hasn't kept investing and trying.

    His inability to move on and find a new identity is in large part the fault of the DC being staffed by a lot of people who grew up with Tim as their Robin. Bendis, Tynion, Taylor 3 prominent figures who have all proclaimed their fondness for the character and 3 writers who have recently leaned in on 90's RobinTim nostalgia as Kino.

    It's hard to make a clean break when writers won't let readers move on.
    Or when the writers of said content don't use him well.

  15. #15
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Posts
    916

    Default

    Because he needs something new. Not just sexual orientation, his character needs a huge changes in status quo. Yeah, he was created to be the Robin, who would be not just sidekick, but hero with his own support cast and storylines, and probably it's one of the reasons why they're hesistaning from moving him away from that. Attempts to keep Robin mantle on him are useless and harmful, it would only work if Damian give up the mantle. But this did not happen and will not happen in the near future, Damian is the Robin now, and there's no reason for Tim to share this mantle, he grew out of it.
    Make him a detective in GCPD, or give him a different alias and make him work somewhere else, or, damn, they can even make him an anti-hero, even though it would cause a backlash. Tim desperately needs something new, not just clinging to Robin mantle for eternity.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •