Why is it so hard to really do anything good with Tim Drake now a days?

[Lal]

Often a character who was extremely popular during a specific decade often just falls through DC's editorial cracks and never regains the momentum they once had.

I think of Firestorm in the 80's, and to be honest, Tim Drake of the 90's alongside lesser Bat characters that were popular like Azreal & Anarky.

I think the transition of graduating to Red Robin never really caught on, probably because he's less notable than Nightwing, and doesn't stand out as an anti hero like Jason Todd.

There was also a crazy inflation of creating more and more bat characters, so it was getting harder to compete with all the others on the limited spotlight available.

Personally, while I prefer Tim to be a college student that balances school, dating, discovering himself as queer and solving crimes, I think he mostly needs a writer who's passionate enough about him and has a clear idea of what they want to do with him. If the idea is good enough, the codename isn't that important.
Tim didn't have a solo for ages, but judging from FS he may have enough fan base to try a mini that could explore his story further.

[Restingvoice]

By the way

What was Tim doing directly before the reboot? I mean where is he, what was his goal, what was his character, what was his relationship with other heroes?

[Lal]

By the way

What was Tim doing directly before the reboot? I mean where is he, what was his goal, what was his character, what was his relationship with other heroes?

Do you mean before the New 52? He had the Red Robin series, which is considered by many Tim fans to be his best representation to date (even though he suffered from a mental breakdown during the entire first arc, and the book wasn't in sync at all with the main bat book regarding many key aspects, such as who controls Wayne enterprises, or who discovered that Bruce is alive).

But he was both an independent hero, and very capable in that series.

[Restingvoice]

Do you mean before the New 52? He had the Red Robin series, which is considered by many Tim fans to be his best representation to date (even though he suffered from a mental breakdown during the entire first arc, and the book wasn't in sync at all with the main bat book regarding many key aspects, such as who controls Wayne enterprises, or who discovered that Bruce is alive).

But he was both an independent hero, and very capable in that series.

Yeah, what was his status in the last arc of Red Robin? What was his goal, where was he going, and so on

[Lal]

Yeah, what was his status in the last arc of Red Robin? What was his goal, where was he going, and so on

Well, he was an independent hero that worked apart from most of the batfamily, and had Ra's as one of his main rivals. He was closer to Cass, and was more calculated, dark and edgy (for example, he did save the man who killed his father, but it was clear he considered letting him die).
He had sort of a relationship with Tam Fox, he flirted with Linx and was almost raped in one of the last issues.

Anyway, I'm not sure that being edgy and dark is even an option now that we have both Jason and Damian occupying this niche.

[Godlike13]

His goal was to find Bruce originally, that’s was it’s sales pitch for the character, but the book wasn’t really in the loop and couldn’t spoil anything Morrison was doing so it was pretty meh. Hard core fans often tend to overvalue a series when it’s such slim pickings. Generally speaking Red Robin was a pretty mediocre series in my opinion, but when everything is awful even mediocre becomes an oasis.

[Restingvoice]

Okay I'm getting the picture of his character. I think his unique point that I gather, from him working with Ra's in Red Robin, and then being the first one who welcomes Jason in New 52, that he is the member of the Bat fam that will voluntarily work with the other side in order to achieve his goal. That is his edginess, his darkening.

Whereas Bruce is usually forced into that situation, Dick does it because he believes in their good side (at least in Seeley's version), Damian outright refuses because he wants to be a good guy (after renouncing the assassin background and wanting to prove himself), and Jason is more outwardly villainous, including when he's pretending to be a villain.

Tim is getting into the Neutral side. He will take advantage of help from both sides in order to achieve his goal. That's his thing that I gather.

[Godlike13]

Maybe they can use those instances to develop that into a thing, but I wouldn’t say that’s something they are actively aware of with the character.

[Ascended]

To be honest, as much as I wasn't the biggest fan of some of what Tynion did with Tim, I think he had it right that Tim is the kind of character who would probably try to improve Batman's War on Crime in his own way and has probably come too far in the hero game to permanently give it up.

I imagine he'd return to a costume eventually, yeah. Everyone always does. But for right now, until DC figures out what to do with him? Tell me that what I'm proposing is worse than Drake. I don't see retirement to the GCPD as Tim's final move, but as a viable place for him until somebody cracks his "Nightwing" moment. Better something like this, than a continuous string of bad codenames and Tim being utterly, completely redundant and useless.

And it has felt like Tim has slowly been gravitating towards the more extreme, "better than Batman/final solution" end of the spectrum, going back as far as him trying to clone Conner after Infinite Crisis. I can see Tim going down that road. But if you think about where that road leads? Might not be the best direction for him longterm, Tim tends to slide into authoritarianism real quick when he starts trying to do things better than Bruce did.

And he's also the character who will drop everything for Bruce at the drop of a hat. Dick has too many obligations to properly do that now, Jason's Jason, and Bruce and Damian haven't been in a place to be partners in a long time.

Who says Tim needs to be wearing a costume to help Bruce?

I'm essentially suggesting that, at least for a while, that Tim become a plainclothes pulp hero, closer to Dick Tracy than Batman. And nothing about that demands that Tim stay out of the action.

Considering the lack of focus on civilian characters in general, making Tim one is probably going to hurt his screentime rather than help it (especially with how inconsistent writers' care for him is). I mean, putting him in the GCPD might help because they're like the only people we ever see but even that can be spotty.

This is true, but Tim's appearances are spotty now. He's already in a bad position where he isn't used much because he has nothing unique to offer. He's not going to be any worse off than he already is by joining the GCPD, but that puts him in a position nobody else fills, and that makes the odds of him getting more page time improve.

Seriously, what does Tim have to lose?

[dietrich]

Maybe they can use those instances to develop that into to a thing, but I wouldn’t say that’s something they are actively aware of with the character.

Correct. There's a lot of talk about Tim being the most like Bruce as a positive but looking at the stories the qualities Tim shares with Bruce are the negatives.

Tim is neutral to a point where he's so detached he's willing to work with the Colony.

There is a darkness to the character that could be shaped into a niche

Tim might need someone who isn't a fanboy to explore that angle and do something fresh with him.
Someone who's willing to be critical and deliver an interesting [not generic he's the smartest or bestest] take on Tim.

[scary harpy]

What good things do we want done with Tim Drake soon?

Or should we start a new thread to discuss this?

[dietrich]

What good things do we want done with Tim Drake soon?

Or should we start a new thread to discuss this?

Could you start a new thread. This one doesn't feel very positive.

I want to see his relationship with Bernard fleshed out and explored. it's exciting having a male batfam member come out but that excitement is dying without any immediate followup.

[scary harpy]

Could you start a new thread. This one doesn't feel very positive.

I want to see his relationship with Bernard fleshed out and explored. it's exciting having a male batfam member come out but that excitement is dying without any immediate followup.

Okay. 10 characters

[Frontier]

His goal was to find Bruce originally, that’s was it’s sales pitch for the character, but the book wasn’t really in the loop and couldn’t spoil anything Morrison was doing so it was pretty meh. Hard core fans often tend to overvalue a series when it’s such slim pickings. Generally speaking Red Robin was a pretty mediocre series in my opinion, but when everything is awful even mediocre becomes an oasis.

I liked the Yost/Nicieza run.

I imagine he'd return to a costume eventually, yeah. Everyone always does. But for right now, until DC figures out what to do with him? Tell me that what I'm proposing is worse than Drake. I don't see retirement to the GCPD as Tim's final move, but as a viable place for him until somebody cracks his "Nightwing" moment. Better something like this, than a continuous string of bad codenames and Tim being utterly, completely redundant and useless.

And it has felt like Tim has slowly been gravitating towards the more extreme, "better than Batman/final solution" end of the spectrum, going back as far as him trying to clone Conner after Infinite Crisis. I can see Tim going down that road. But if you think about where that road leads? Might not be the best direction for him longterm, Tim tends to slide into authoritarianism real quick when he starts trying to do things better than Bruce did.

I dunno, conceptually it just seems like writing him off unless the writers do it with the intention of actually focusing on him. Without that guarantee I'm not sure if it it's worth it.

Has there even been a Superhero character that was retired and focused on while retired? They tried that with Harper Row but that didn't stick.

Of course him sliding more into acting like Bruce was one of his Red Robin arcs.

Who says Tim needs to be wearing a costume to help Bruce?

I'm essentially suggesting that, at least for a while, that Tim become a plainclothes pulp hero, closer to Dick Tracy than Batman. And nothing about that demands that Tim stay out of the action.

That reminds me of Jason Bard more than it does, say, Tim. Of course Jason's a domestic terrorist now, so I guess there's an opening.

This is true, but Tim's appearances are spotty now. He's already in a bad position where he isn't used much because he has nothing unique to offer. He's not going to be any worse off than he already is by joining the GCPD, but that puts him in a position nobody else fills, and that makes the odds of him getting more page time improve.

Seriously, what does Tim have to lose?

Any relevancy to the Batfamily, I guess, unless writers want to actually focus on him which is the main thing at the end of the day.

[Restingvoice]

Maybe they can use those instances to develop that into to a thing, but I wouldn’t say that’s something they are actively aware of with the character.

No... they're not... New 52 Tim has kind of a cold, arrogant and jerkass attitude due to his focus on the mission, but when he helps Jason and Kon it was out of understanding, and actually his positive traits, instead of leaning to moral ambiguity.

Tynion kinda play into the moral ambiguity when Tim wanted to create a utopia, but it's a different kind.

Then Bendis just straight up made him pre-Red Robin. I'm still getting the same vibe in Nightwing and Urban Legends.

I mean look at my Profile Pic. That coming out story won't feel the same way if he's Red Robin Red Robin, and I think they're still gonna make him The Cute One for a while, which is fair, since Damian and Jason are already The Edgy One.