Why is it so hard to really do anything good with Tim Drake now a days?

[CPSparkles]

No... they're not... New 52 Tim has kind of a cold, arrogant and jerkass attitude due to his focus on the mission, but when he helps Jason and Kon it was out of understanding, and actually his positive traits, instead of leaning to moral ambiguity.

Tynion kinda play into the moral ambiguity when Tim wanted to create a utopia, but it's a different kind.

Then Bendis just straight up made him pre-Red Robin. I'm still getting the same vibe in Nightwing and Urban Legends.

I mean look at my Profile Pic. That coming out story won't feel the same way if he's Red Robin Red Robin, and I think they're still gonna make him The Cute One for a while, which is fair, since Damian and Jason are already The Edgy One.

Damian is the cute edgy one
Tim is the not straight one
Jason is the sensitive confused one. That's my read if they are trying to make Tim cute then they need to do more than give him a goofy outdated hair do.

It feels odd that in the issue he came he explained he wasn't Robin and in his next outing he is going by Red Robin and yet some fans insisting on forcing the name Robin on him. I don't know how this is going to be resolved since it's not just on DC.

The fans seem to be the problem not DC.

[ZuLuLu]

Controversial opinion: Put Tim and Jason in a book together.

I would prefer Jason to be with his old Outlaws gang again, but since most of the others are currently busy I think a team up with Jason and Tim could work for now. Given that it would just be two of them each could get good character development.

As long as they don't stereotype Jason as the dumb one and Tim as the smart one I think because of their personality and ideological differences the dynamic between these two if done right could be interesting and fun.


Plus make Tim 18/19 years.

[Ascended]

I dunno, conceptually it just seems like writing him off unless the writers do it with the intention of actually focusing on him. Without that guarantee I'm not sure if it it's worth it.

They've already written him out to a large extent. He's showing up a tiny bit right now, but how often in the last decade has Tim been completely MIA from the entire publishing line? How much more often has he been completely absent from the Bat line?

A supporting cast is there to be used, so I suppose that yes, I am operating under the assumption that DC is capable of basic competency and Tim's position in the supporting cast wouldn't be limbo-by-another-name, and because this is DC that's not as guaranteed as it should be.

But wearing a costume hasn't helped him either so again, there's nothing to lose. Worst case scenario is that he barely shows up....and we're already at that point.

Has there even been a Superhero character that was retired and focused on while retired? They tried that with Harper Row but that didn't stick.

Let's not confuse "focused on" and "still part of the supporting cast." And yes, we've seen characters retire from active duty but get plenty of panel time in books. Max Mercury. Ted Knight. Ted Kord. It's not super common, but that's good; makes Tim feel more unique that way.

Think of it like this; most of the time there is at least a couple different cops who appear regularly in Bruce's comics; Gordon, Bullock, etc. Put Tim in one of those spots. Most of the time, Bullock and Gordon get *at least* as much panel time as Tim does these days, and they actually add something to the story.

Any relevancy to the Batfamily, I guess, unless writers want to actually focus on him which is the main thing at the end of the day.

Tim already lost all of his relevancy. You're trying to protect something he lost years ago, and making him Drake/Red Robin/Robin hasn't fixed anything. No new codename or costume is going to help because the role and purpose Tim filled is either currently filled by someone else, or is no longer necessary to the larger Gotham/Bruce narrative. It's not just a matter of Tim needing a new codename, it's a matter of Tim needing a new reason to exist, a purpose to fill.

Tim as a costumed vigilante currently offers nothing worth using regardless of what he calls himself, so the solution is to put him in a new position and a new niche where his character *does* offer something that can't be found elsewhere.

I don't suggest this as a permanent situation, just a hold over until someone comes up with a good idea for him.

[Captain Nostalgia]

There was also a crazy inflation of creating more and more bat characters, so it was getting harder to compete with all the others on the limited spotlight available.

Personally, while I prefer Tim to be a college student that balances school, dating, discovering himself as queer and solving crimes, I think he mostly needs a writer who's passionate enough about him and has a clear idea of what they want to do with him. If the idea is good enough, the codename isn't that important.
Tim didn't have a solo for ages, but judging from FS he may have enough fan base to try a mini that could explore his story further.

I think a mini series if fair game. He did have a huge fanbase at one point in time, so a 4 to 6 part series should move some numbers.

[dietrich]

Controversial opinion: Put Tim and Jason in a book together.

I would prefer Jason to be with his old Outlaws gang again, but since most of the others are currently busy I think a team up with Jason and Tim could work for now. Given that it would just be two of them each could get good character development.

As long as they don't stereotype Jason as the dumb one and Tim as the smart one I think because of their personality and ideological differences the dynamic between these two if done right could be interesting and fun.


Plus make Tim 18/19 years.

Jason and tim shouldn't be in a book together. Jason has tried to kill Tim Many times. More times than Damian. Making it so that Tim is able to forgive the grown man who tried to kill him many times but still has a grudge for the kid who tried to kill him and later saved his life makes tim a douchebag who's simply jealous of Damian.

There is no good bases or foundation for jason and Tim as friends. Jason and the WP kid might have been forced together [because Dick and Damian] but that was a different person who was using the Tim name.

[Blue22]

Does Tim still hold a grudge against Damian? They're not exactly best buddies now but I haven't really noticed any real animosity in recent comics. Hell, I recall a couple of times where there's actually been some respect between the two. Ever since Tim was part of the rescue team that helped bring him back to life, I think he and Damian just kinda...stopped hating each other.

The Batfam seems to have kinda buried the hatchet when it comes to Jason (and until stated otherwise, I'd like to think a lot of his pre-Flashpoint bullshit didn't happen. Like him dressing in his old Robin suit and beating up Tim. That was just...goofy). So I wouldn't mind seeing the two working with each other. Maybe not for a whole book but like, an arc or two. Unless they find a way to make their dynamic as good as Dick and Damian's. In which case, yeah. Go for the whole book.

[dietrich]

Does Tim still hold a grudge against Damian? They're not exactly best buddies now but I haven't really noticed any real animosity in recent comics. Hell, I recall a couple of times where they've more or less respected each other.

The Batfam seems to have kinda buried the hatchet when it comes to Jason (and until stated otherwise, I'd like to think a lot of his pre-Flashpoint bullshit didn't happen. Like him dressing in his old Robin suit and beating up Tim. That was just...goofy). So I wouldn't mind seeing the two working with each other. Maybe not for a whole book but like, an arc or two.

Jason and his resentment re Tim and being replaced did happen. That's not canon that one can ignore since it's a pretty big part of Jason's grope after returning.

Tim and Damian are unclear but Tim's line about everyone being here when Damian quit and was absent tells me that if Damian was on fire and Tim had too much water he'd still hesitate to put Damian out.

All characters have embarrassing bits of canon. Jason didn't return and have zero feeling about the kid that replaced him. That makes no sense.

Damian didn't just forgive the man that stripped him and tried expose him to all of Gotham.

Dick didn't just forgive the man who paralyzed his baby bro left his other Baby bro for dead and tried to ruin his hero name.

I don't buy that the bats are just fine with Jason because it doesn't make narrative sense and nothing I've been shown makes it make sense.

[Blue22]

For better or worse, that's just kinda...how it goes in both the Batfamily and fiction in general. There's more to suggest they're all pretty much cool with Jason now than there is to suggest that they hold any serious grudges. Regardless of if they should.

Especially Dick, who's straight up called Red Hood one of his brothers and thinks about him pretty fondly, along with his the rest of his family, as recently as the first issue of Taylor's book.

Whether or not it makes a lot of real world sense, that's just what happens when someone who used to be the bad guy joins the main cast. Just look at how many characters here used to be villains:

Six, if you didn't know. And two of them have been responsible for straight up planetary genocides (Four if you count the future versions of the Androids). Hell, one of them is (kinda) responsible for the death of the main character's best friend and now he's the guy that that same character trusts his son and granddaughter with.

Or, using your avatar as an example, Bakugo. He may have never been an antagonist like Jason was but when you look at the way he treated Deku for most of their lives, it's also kinda hard to believe that the two of them would be as close as they are now. What he put that boy through for years could have been seen as emotional/psychological abuse.

So it may not be totally realistic but I don't really have that big a problem with Jason's face-turn and the fact that he's mostly cool with the family now. In fact, I kinda prefer it that way. I always hated Pre-Flashpoint Red Hood. Plenty of characters, both in and outside of comics, have done way worse than him and still got to be redeemed. So Jason's not the hill I'm going to die on when it comes to a character not deserving redemption (that honor belongs to bitch ass Professor Snape and, funny enough, the live action Red Hood in the Titans show)

[dietrich]

For better or worse, that's just kinda...how it goes in both the Batfamily and fiction in general. There's more to suggest they're all pretty much cool with Jason now than there is to suggest that they hold any serious grudges. Regardless of if they should.

Especially Dick, who's straight up called Red Hood one of his brothers and thinks about him pretty fondly, along with his the rest of his family, as recently as the first issue of Taylor's book.

Whether or not it makes a lot of real world sense, that's just what happens when someone who used to be the bad guy joins the main cast. Just look at how many characters here used to be villains:

Six, if you didn't know. And two of them have been responsible for straight up planetary genocides (Four if you count the future versions of the Androids). Hell, one of them is (kinda) responsible for the death of the main character's best friend and now he's the guy that that same character trusts his son and granddaughter with.

Or, using your avatar as an example, Bakugo. He may have never been an antagonist like Jason was but when you look at the way he treated Deku for most of their lives, it's also kinda hard to believe that the two of them would be as close as they are now. What he put that boy through for years could have been seen as emotional/psychological abuse.

So it may not be totally realistic but I don't really have that big a problem with Jason's face-turn and the fact that he's mostly cool with the family now. In fact, I kinda prefer it that way. I always hated Pre-Flashpoint Red Hood. Plenty of characters, both in and outside of comics, have done way worse than him and still got to be redeemed. So Jason's not the hill I'm going to die on when it comes to a character not deserving redemption (that honor belongs to bitch ass Professor Snape and, funny enough, the live action Red Hood in the Titans show)

Deku age 5 said that nothing has ever stopped him dreaming of his goal meaning that everything bakugou did was pretty worthless. Deku affected bakugou more than Bakugou ever affected Deku. hence why deku is an emotional trigger for bakugou while bakugou triggers Deku as much as Ochaco and All might.

fans get hung up on a few words and ignore everything else the BHA text has told us so far. It irks me.

Jason beat Damian to pulp and threatened to kill his teammates I don't see any way those two are fine. jason tried to Kill Tim several times I don't see anyway those two are fine.

jason blamed Damian for Alfred's death despite being the only family member cowardly enough to abide by the kidnappers demands.

I know they are writing Dick and Jay as bros but Dick calling jason his brother means nothing. They are technically brothers and even if they are not. Jason called Duke his brother even though Bruce has never ever been remotely a father figure to Duke.

I haven't seen the boys relate like they are brothers. When was even the last time Tim and jason had any real Interaction? It must have been pre flashpoint.

Bruce is the only one that has made peace with Jason. Dick and Damian are whatever the rest might as well be strangers if we go by what we have so far in canon

[Lady Nightwing]

I genuinely think I'd like Jason better if we got to see his redemption arc. There's seldom forgiveness without attrition and atonement. Plus, it's hard to like a guy who keeps throwing tantrums about how Bruce/Dick treated him and in Canon he has done much, much worse to his family

[Restingvoice]

Does Tim still hold a grudge against Damian? They're not exactly best buddies now but I haven't really noticed any real animosity in recent comics. Hell, I recall a couple of times where there's actually been some respect between the two. Ever since Tim was part of the rescue team that helped bring him back to life, I think he and Damian just kinda...stopped hating each other.

The Batfam seems to have kinda buried the hatchet when it comes to Jason (and until stated otherwise, I'd like to think a lot of his pre-Flashpoint bullshit didn't happen. Like him dressing in his old Robin suit and beating up Tim. That was just...goofy). So I wouldn't mind seeing the two working with each other. Maybe not for a whole book but like, an arc or two. Unless they find a way to make their dynamic as good as Dick and Damian's. In which case, yeah. Go for the whole book.

Deku age 5 said that nothing has ever stopped him dreaming of his goal meaning that everything bakugou did was pretty worthless. Deku affected bakugou more than Bakugou ever affected Deku. hence why deku is an emotional trigger for bakugou while bakugou triggers Deku as much as Ochaco and All might.

fans get hung up on a few words and ignore everything else the BHA text has told us so far. It irks me.

Jason beat Damian to pulp and threatened to kill his teammates I don't see any way those two are fine. jason tried to Kill Tim several times I don't see anyway those two are fine.

jason blamed Damian for Alfred's death despite being the only family member cowardly enough to abide by the kidnappers demands.

I know they are writing Dick and Jay as bros but Dick calling jason his brother means nothing. They are technically brothers and even if they are not. Jason called Duke his brother even though Bruce has never ever been remotely a father figure to Duke.

I haven't seen the boys relate like they are brothers. When was even the last time Tim and jason had any real Interaction? It must have been pre flashpoint.

Bruce is the only one that has made peace with Jason. Dick and Damian are whatever the rest might as well be strangers if we go by what we have so far in canon

Jason did attack Tim, but Lobdell wrote Tim in the new continuity as someone who was inspired by the image of Jason as Robin and idolizes Jason to the point of delusion (he calls him brother even when they only interact during Batfam meetings and this was when Jason was trying to stay away from the fam) and the attack was not described in details. So it may not even happened the same way.

Then Tynion wrote Tim at the point where Jason is already back in the fam, and everyone else just continue writing them where they're left off

Although at this point Tim's origin is back to him idolizing Dick instead of Jason, the impression I got was aside from Under The Red Hood no one considers everything Jason did after that is canon anymore, or if they are, the bat fam considers it water under the bridge until Jason starts blasting again

[Frontier]

They've already written him out to a large extent. He's showing up a tiny bit right now, but how often in the last decade has Tim been completely MIA from the entire publishing line? How much more often has he been completely absent from the Bat line?

A supporting cast is there to be used, so I suppose that yes, I am operating under the assumption that DC is capable of basic competency and Tim's position in the supporting cast wouldn't be limbo-by-another-name, and because this is DC that's not as guaranteed as it should be.

But wearing a costume hasn't helped him either so again, there's nothing to lose. Worst case scenario is that he barely shows up....and we're already at that point.

Well, Tom Taylor's using him in his Nightwing run, so there's that. I don't think it would make a positive benefit for him to drop Superheroics without any guarantee he would receive more character focus.

I guess one of the ironies of the New 52 was still pushing the YJ generation despite woefully misusing and writing them terribly.

Let's not confuse "focused on" and "still part of the supporting cast." And yes, we've seen characters retire from active duty but get plenty of panel time in books. Max Mercury. Ted Knight. Ted Kord. It's not super common, but that's good; makes Tim feel more unique that way.

Think of it like this; most of the time there is at least a couple different cops who appear regularly in Bruce's comics; Gordon, Bullock, etc. Put Tim in one of those spots. Most of the time, Bullock and Gordon get *at least* as much panel time as Tim does these days, and they actually add something to the story.

The difference between Tim and those characters were they were mentors to characters in their solo books and effectively co-leads. Unless Tim becomes a mentor figure to a new young hero (does anyone remember him training Harper?) I don't think he'd be afforded the same luxury.

Tim already lost all of his relevancy. You're trying to protect something he lost years ago, and making him Drake/Red Robin/Robin hasn't fixed anything. No new codename or costume is going to help because the role and purpose Tim filled is either currently filled by someone else, or is no longer necessary to the larger Gotham/Bruce narrative. It's not just a matter of Tim needing a new codename, it's a matter of Tim needing a new reason to exist, a purpose to fill.

Tim as a costumed vigilante currently offers nothing worth using regardless of what he calls himself, so the solution is to put him in a new position and a new niche where his character *does* offer something that can't be found elsewhere.

I don't suggest this as a permanent situation, just a hold over until someone comes up with a good idea for him.

I feel like there is a way to evolve Tim, as a hero, without needing to drop that aspect of his character entirely. But I also would rather see more than less Tim.

[Writerblog]

Damian is the cute edgy one
Tim is the not straight one
Jason is the sensitive confused one. That's my read if they are trying to make Tim cute then they need to do more than give him a goofy outdated hair do.

It feels odd that in the issue he came he explained he wasn't Robin and in his next outing he is going by Red Robin and yet some fans insisting on forcing the name Robin on him. I don't know how this is going to be resolved since it's not just on DC.

The fans seem to be the problem not DC.

If you describe Tim whole personality as being bisexual, well he already lost.

I genuinely think I'd like Jason better if we got to see his redemption arc. There's seldom forgiveness without attrition and atonement. Plus, it's hard to like a guy who keeps throwing tantrums about how Bruce/Dick treated him and in Canon he has done much, much worse to his family

This.

[Fergus]

I genuinely think I'd like Jason better if we got to see his redemption arc. There's seldom forgiveness without attrition and atonement. Plus, it's hard to like a guy who keeps throwing tantrums about how Bruce/Dick treated him and in Canon he has done much, much worse to his family

Agreed.
jason is yet to have a redemption arc. Jason has a lot to atone for before he can start playing happy families.

[Fergus]

Jason did attack Tim, but Lobdell wrote Tim in the new continuity as someone who was inspired by the image of Jason as Robin and idolizes Jason to the point of delusion (he calls him brother even when they only interact during Batfam meetings and this was when Jason was trying to stay away from the fam) and the attack was not described in details. So it may not even happened the same way.

Then Tynion wrote Tim at the point where Jason is already back in the fam, and everyone else just continue writing them where they're left off

Although at this point Tim's origin is back to him idolizing Dick instead of Jason, the impression I got was aside from Under The Red Hood no one considers everything Jason did after that is canon anymore, or if they are, the bat fam considers it water under the bridge until Jason starts blasting again

Lobell didn't write Tim he wrote Tim not drake a different person who is no longer a thing. Tim didn't idolize Jason. Far fromit. Jason did try to kill Damian, Dick and Tim. Many times. That has NEVER been out of continuity.

The impression you got from where? All of Damian's history is intact, All of morrisons, All of BFTC, All of Alfred RIP.

You can debate whether Tentacletodd is still canon [I believe it is] but you can't debate those that I mentioned because they were never out of canon.