Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 26 of 26
  1. #16
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,594

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I still think it’s funky how Kylo’ biggest handicaps are just how much LFL just didn’t want him to be treated as a villain after TFA; TFA gave him a. Decent start while making it clear he was supposed to keep going forward and get more dangerous as a villain, but LFL was just like “But it’s Adam Driver! With beautiful hair! We can’t spend that on a villain!”

    People forget how much of a success he was as a villain when TFA came out… and often overlook just how much TLJ undermined and sabotaged that.
    Eh, even in the force awakens he was a bad villain after his first scene. Throwing temper tantrums took away any menace he had from stopping that blaster bolt mid air. For what ever reason it was decided he should be a joke from the get go rather than a proper antagonist.
    Looking for a friendly place to discuss comic books? Try The Classic Comics Forum!

  2. #17
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Eh, even in the force awakens he was a bad villain after his first scene. Throwing temper tantrums took away any menace he had from stopping that blaster bolt mid air. For what ever reason it was decided he should be a joke from the get go rather than a proper antagonist.
    For me; the tantrums were WHY he was good. He wasn't Vader. He wasn't this intinidating, menacing presence. But he was wildly unpredictible. He could lose it at a moment's notice. And unlike Vader, who might kill an officer who failed him in a fit of pique, Kylo might go off on EVERYONE.

    It felt like if he was set off, it might not matter who was friend or foe. That he might just slaughter them all.

    His complete lack of emotional maturity and self control was the very thing that made him different. Not a schemer, or a planner. The worst kind of wild dog. He wasn't menacing but he felt dangerous. Pathetic but terrifying. A school shooter metaphor in a galaxy far, far away.

    Sadly, that got ditched for something a lot blander in the follow up films.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,594

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    For me; the tantrums were WHY he was good. He wasn't Vader. He wasn't this intinidating, menacing presence. But he was wildly unpredictible. He could lose it at a moment's notice. And unlike Vader, who might kill an officer who failed him in a fit of pique, Kylo might go off on EVERYONE.

    It felt like if he was set off, it might not matter who was friend or foe. That he might just slaughter them all.

    His complete lack of emotional maturity and self control was the very thing that made him different. Not a schemer, or a planner. The worst kind of wild dog. He wasn't menacing but he felt dangerous. Pathetic but terrifying. A school shooter metaphor in a galaxy far, far away.

    Sadly, that got ditched for something a lot blander in the follow up films.
    Eh, if they had played up some of that it could have worked...but they never did. Instead he was just whiny.
    Looking for a friendly place to discuss comic books? Try The Classic Comics Forum!

  4. #19
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Eh, if they had played up some of that it could have worked...but they never did. Instead he was just whiny.
    Well, yeah. He's a caricature of toxic privelage. That sounds about right.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,070

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Eh, if they had played up some of that it could have worked...but they never did. Instead he was just whiny.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Well, yeah. He's a caricature of toxic privelage. That sounds about right.
    In TFA, you are supposed to laugh at or be disgusted and disturbed by Kylo’s tantrums, tortures, and petty cruelty; his whininess is an asset in making him loathsome at his worst moments, as it drives home the idea that you’re not supposed to fear him in a respectful way but fear him in a hateful way.

    He’s a Neo-Nazi school shooter who violates Rey in a manner that plays up the creep vibes compared to how he tortured Poe, and who has enough spite and sadism to waste his time when fighting Finn with torture and toying of him.

    The blatant abuse of power dynamics, and the loathing that imparted in observant members of the audience, was a key part of what made TFA’s climax work; in many ways, he benefitted from Finn being such a righteous and scrappy underdog, since it let Kylo come off as more privileged, callous, and elitist. Yes, there was an element of pity to him as well, as it was suggested he was delusional and brainwashed… but even that was pity, not sympathy, and his brute power was still treated as exceedingly dangerous.

    This is a pretty good character for an Azula/Ozai-like comparison… and the problem was that LFL thought he was a Zuko.
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,594

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Well, yeah. He's a caricature of toxic privelage. That sounds about right.
    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    In TFA, you are supposed to laugh at or be disgusted and disturbed by Kylo’s tantrums, tortures, and petty cruelty; his whininess is an asset in making him loathsome at his worst moments, as it drives home the idea that you’re not supposed to fear him in a respectful way but fear him in a hateful way.

    He’s a Neo-Nazi school shooter who violates Rey in a manner that plays up the creep vibes compared to how he tortured Poe, and who has enough spite and sadism to waste his time when fighting Finn with torture and toying of him.

    The blatant abuse of power dynamics, and the loathing that imparted in observant members of the audience, was a key part of what made TFA’s climax work; in many ways, he benefitted from Finn being such a righteous and scrappy underdog, since it let Kylo come off as more privileged, callous, and elitist. Yes, there was an element of pity to him as well, as it was suggested he was delusional and brainwashed… but even that was pity, not sympathy, and his brute power was still treated as exceedingly dangerous.

    This is a pretty good character for an Azula/Ozai-like comparison… and the problem was that LFL thought he was a Zuko.
    The thing is...that's not at all interesting. And it didn't make him feel more dangerous...it made him feel like Cobra Commander. He had one decent scene in the opening and then every other time he appeared after that they just worked more and more on making him come off as embarrassing which doesn't make him and interesting or compelling character.
    Looking for a friendly place to discuss comic books? Try The Classic Comics Forum!

  7. #22
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    10,472

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I still think it’s funky how Kylo’ biggest handicaps are just how much LFL just didn’t want him to be treated as a villain after TFA; TFA gave him a. Decent start while making it clear he was supposed to keep going forward and get more dangerous as a villain, but LFL was just like “But it’s Adam Driver! With beautiful hair! We can’t spend that on a villain!”

    People forget how much of a success he was as a villain when TFA came out… and often overlook just how much TLJ undermined and sabotaged that.
    What happened is Disney tried to have their cake and eat too (as the old saying goes). They capitulated to the Reylos in LFL and more so in ROS. Rather than have Rey and Fin develop a healthy romance as a romantic subplot they catered to the "he's a bad boy but my love can fix him" audience. I will always contend pandering of the lowest order is what ruined Kylo as a villain.
    Last edited by Celgress; 11-24-2021 at 11:14 AM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #23
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,364

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    The thing is...that's not at all interesting. And it didn't make him feel more dangerous...it made him feel like Cobra Commander. He had one decent scene in the opening and then every other time he appeared after that they just worked more and more on making him come off as embarrassing which doesn't make him and interesting or compelling character.
    So, you're utterly entitled to your opinion. I don't want you to think that what follows is disparaging that or saying you're wrong or "didn't get it." I just want to point at something because you brought it up.

    You note that he has one good moment in the opening. I assume you mean when he stops the blaster bolt in midair. Yes. That's the point of the character. Look at his trajectory in the film, beginning with that beat, and you get the picture of what they are going for.

    Kylo Ren is toxic (white, male) privilege. He is the Chosen One. He doesn't have to work or put in effort, the universe simply bows to his whims because of who he is, who was born as. He isn't well trained, or better that those around him. He's just MORE POWERFUL. He brute forces everything, because he believes that there is nobody in the universe who can stand up to him on the power front. He stops the blaster bolt, and that's impressive and all, but it's a pure force application of the Force. No elegance or nuance, just raw power.

    Now we see how the movie progresses. Any time the universe denies him he rages. He throws petty tantrums. He's pathetic. The first time he faces Rey, he overwhelms her. She never has a chance. When he faces Finn at the film's climax, we see how "well trained" Kylo is. He easily defeats a dubiously trained Stormtrooper conscript who has never held a lightsaber before, toying with him cruelly. But he doesn't need to display superior swordsmanship or skill. His opponent never stood a chance. It's punching down in a way that reveals how utterly sad Kylo Ren is as a human being. That he feels the need to play with his food isn't just despicable, it's a mark of privilege trying to put someone back in their place. Of maintaining the power imbalance.

    Then he faces Rey. By this point, she has become his equal in power in the Force. She has no training, only instinct and her survival experience to draw from. She's a fighter, but has never held a lightsaber in combat before this moment. And she absolutely owns him. On equal ground, with no advantage in raw supernatural power to draw on, Kylo Ren gets his @$$ beat by someone who has had to fight to survive her whole life. Who has had to face defeats and hardship and suffering. Who has had to do the work and doesn't just expect their whims to be catered to. Suddenly Kylo Ren isn't looking that qualified to be the Chosen One anymore. Suddenly there is someone who works harder, who has more talent. Who simply has never had the opportunity offered to Ben Solo by virtue of his birth.

    It's no accident that Kylo Ren's arch foes in TFA are a black man who was forced into labor against his will and a girl who spends the whole movie finding her voice in a universe that has spent her whole life telling her she doesn't matter. Say what you want about the forces of "wokeness" in the later two sequels, TFA is the single most "woke" piece of Star Wars fiction ever produced.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,594

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    So, you're utterly entitled to your opinion. I don't want you to think that what follows is disparaging that or saying you're wrong or "didn't get it." I just want to point at something because you brought it up.

    You note that he has one good moment in the opening. I assume you mean when he stops the blaster bolt in midair. Yes. That's the point of the character. Look at his trajectory in the film, beginning with that beat, and you get the picture of what they are going for.

    Kylo Ren is toxic (white, male) privilege. He is the Chosen One. He doesn't have to work or put in effort, the universe simply bows to his whims because of who he is, who was born as. He isn't well trained, or better that those around him. He's just MORE POWERFUL. He brute forces everything, because he believes that there is nobody in the universe who can stand up to him on the power front. He stops the blaster bolt, and that's impressive and all, but it's a pure force application of the Force. No elegance or nuance, just raw power.

    Now we see how the movie progresses. Any time the universe denies him he rages. He throws petty tantrums. He's pathetic. The first time he faces Rey, he overwhelms her. She never has a chance. When he faces Finn at the film's climax, we see how "well trained" Kylo is. He easily defeats a dubiously trained Stormtrooper conscript who has never held a lightsaber before, toying with him cruelly. But he doesn't need to display superior swordsmanship or skill. His opponent never stood a chance. It's punching down in a way that reveals how utterly sad Kylo Ren is as a human being. That he feels the need to play with his food isn't just despicable, it's a mark of privilege trying to put someone back in their place. Of maintaining the power imbalance.

    Then he faces Rey. By this point, she has become his equal in power in the Force. She has no training, only instinct and her survival experience to draw from. She's a fighter, but has never held a lightsaber in combat before this moment. And she absolutely owns him. On equal ground, with no advantage in raw supernatural power to draw on, Kylo Ren gets his @$$ beat by someone who has had to fight to survive her whole life. Who has had to face defeats and hardship and suffering. Who has had to do the work and doesn't just expect their whims to be catered to. Suddenly Kylo Ren isn't looking that qualified to be the Chosen One anymore. Suddenly there is someone who works harder, who has more talent. Who simply has never had the opportunity offered to Ben Solo by virtue of his birth.

    It's no accident that Kylo Ren's arch foes in TFA are a black man who was forced into labor against his will and a girl who spends the whole movie finding her voice in a universe that has spent her whole life telling her she doesn't matter. Say what you want about the forces of "wokeness" in the later two sequels, TFA is the single most "woke" piece of Star Wars fiction ever produced.
    None of that is terribly compelling in my mind...it just came across as really hamfisted and boring. Could it be done well? Maybe, but like just about everything else about the sequels the execution was really lacking.
    Looking for a friendly place to discuss comic books? Try The Classic Comics Forum!

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,070

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    So, you're utterly entitled to your opinion. I don't want you to think that what follows is disparaging that or saying you're wrong or "didn't get it." I just want to point at something because you brought it up.

    You note that he has one good moment in the opening. I assume you mean when he stops the blaster bolt in midair. Yes. That's the point of the character. Look at his trajectory in the film, beginning with that beat, and you get the picture of what they are going for.

    Kylo Ren is toxic (white, male) privilege. He is the Chosen One. He doesn't have to work or put in effort, the universe simply bows to his whims because of who he is, who was born as. He isn't well trained, or better that those around him. He's just MORE POWERFUL. He brute forces everything, because he believes that there is nobody in the universe who can stand up to him on the power front. He stops the blaster bolt, and that's impressive and all, but it's a pure force application of the Force. No elegance or nuance, just raw power.

    Now we see how the movie progresses. Any time the universe denies him he rages. He throws petty tantrums. He's pathetic. The first time he faces Rey, he overwhelms her. She never has a chance. When he faces Finn at the film's climax, we see how "well trained" Kylo is. He easily defeats a dubiously trained Stormtrooper conscript who has never held a lightsaber before, toying with him cruelly. But he doesn't need to display superior swordsmanship or skill. His opponent never stood a chance. It's punching down in a way that reveals how utterly sad Kylo Ren is as a human being. That he feels the need to play with his food isn't just despicable, it's a mark of privilege trying to put someone back in their place. Of maintaining the power imbalance.

    Then he faces Rey. By this point, she has become his equal in power in the Force. She has no training, only instinct and her survival experience to draw from. She's a fighter, but has never held a lightsaber in combat before this moment. And she absolutely owns him. On equal ground, with no advantage in raw supernatural power to draw on, Kylo Ren gets his @$$ beat by someone who has had to fight to survive her whole life. Who has had to face defeats and hardship and suffering. Who has had to do the work and doesn't just expect their whims to be catered to. Suddenly Kylo Ren isn't looking that qualified to be the Chosen One anymore. Suddenly there is someone who works harder, who has more talent. Who simply has never had the opportunity offered to Ben Solo by virtue of his birth.

    It's no accident that Kylo Ren's arch foes in TFA are a black man who was forced into labor against his will and a girl who spends the whole movie finding her voice in a universe that has spent her whole life telling her she doesn't matter. Say what you want about the forces of "wokeness" in the later two sequels, TFA is the single most "woke" piece of Star Wars fiction ever produced.
    This is how I see it, but with two caveats:

    1. Kylo isn’t just defeated by Rey, but by the cumulative effects of every lazy, elitist decision and self-destructive action he takes coming home to roost right when Rey surges forward to meet the occasion. It arguably helps emphasize his elitism, fanaticism and immaturity, as he’s psychologically damaged by his drive to murder his own father for the sake of power clashing with his ignored conscious and denial, which means Chewie can tag him with a bow caster bolt, and that even his toying with Finn (who his failure to take seriously earlier is arguably why SKB is blowing up around him) allows Finn to tag him on a shoulder that Rey will later overpower, and drains his energy and wastes his time - he initially one-shots Rey with a Force Push , but by the time he’s done screwing around with Finn, he’s clearly weakened by blood loss, mental exhaustion, and allowed Rey to recover.

    So it’s not just that he gets karma for his superiority; it’s that, like an overconfident and sloppy football team, he recklessly and smugly made bad decisions that came back to bite him in the ass at the perfect time. He taunted his opponents, toyed with them, didn’t take his prep seriously, and took the least intelligent and intellectually laziest path… and all of it came back to haunt him in a five minute span.

    2. Kylo ends the film with a blatant promise from Abrams that he’ll dynamically change and grow in the next film through training - which is actually a promise of something brand new for the movies, and a great answer to people disappointed at him losing to Rey (+ Chewie and Finn) if they ignore the storytelling involved in his defeat. People forgetting that is just more evidence that Abrams and Kasdan, for all the things they left undefined, clearly did leave solid things behind for Johnson… and that Johnson was lazy and uninspired to ignore them in favor of his much less interesting and frankly insultingly stupid story that retconned away TFA’s strengths.

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    None of that is terribly compelling in my mind...it just came across as really hamfisted and boring. Could it be done well? Maybe, but like just about everything else about the sequels the execution was really lacking.
    It was compelling for enough people to make all three new main characters a major hit, and to help propel TFA beyond expectations into a monster return from the audience… which TLJ did the vast bulk of work in undermining and retconning away. It may not have worked for *you* but it definetly worked for more people than LFL was comfortable admitting to.

    …That last bit may seem like a weird thing to say, but I genuinely think LFL was dismayed at how well the Rey, Finn, and Kylo “antagonism triangle” worked - because having Finn as the deuteragonist and Rey’s co-lead/companion sold a hell of a lot of Kylo’s appeal as a hateable* villain. Finn as a POV character was a success that doubled down on all the negative and ugly aspects that made Kylo a good villain to root against, and Finn reinforces the usual underdog story that Star Wars uses - people who engaged with Finn found him an excellent POV character, and Kylo works great as a villain isn’t he view.

    LFL worked hard to brainwash the audience into forgetting Finn was awesome, and how great it was to cheer against Kylo “The Prick” Ren, because they wanted audiences to cheer *for* Kylo instead.

    *(“Hateable” is the key term here - if you liked Rey and Finn, then Kylo gets excellent “heat” that other dark side villains don’t have.)
    Franchise Wars Podcast and YouTube Host.
    TITANS pilot Recap, Reaction, and Review video! https://youtu.be/l1tKBTUtiyM
    The Force Awakens vs The Last Jedi https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=408109126
    Teen Titans (03) vs Teen Titans Go! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...=2&i=400482734

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    8,172

    Default

    On a side note; I feel kind of sad to have been the only one to mention Galen Marek.

    Alas, the burden of a video game first character fan.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •