Avengers #34 Review (w/Spoilers)

[vitruvian]

The other thing to consider is when all of these events are happening. Clearly in avenger 35, Thor is still worthy, but over in Original Sin, Thor was deemed unworthy and Iron Man was right there fighting along side Cap and the others.

Funny enough, all of these issues are painting Cap as misquided. Nick Furry pretty much confirms that Cap is out of his league when it comes to universal issues.

The moral absolutism also doesn't quite jibe with Cap's history as a soldier and commander in WWII, or more recently in Infinity. I mean, I loved Gruenwald's Cap back in the day, but his absolutism about killing never made sense back then either.

In WWII, Cap was frozen prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I could see him disagreeing with Truman's decision in that matter, but it's not as though that was the beginning of strategic bombing that caused massive civilian casualties in the war, and Steve Rogers never seems to have expressed any doubt as to the moral rectitude of the Allies in prosecuting the war. To the extent that the Allies winning ultimately saved lives and misery across the world, the number of lives taken as collateral damage by Allied attacks would have to be a far, far higher proportion of those saved than the population of Earth is in comparison to the population of two entire universes.

Likewise, in Infinity, Cap had no qualms about engaging in wartime actions up to and including arranging for world-destroyer ships to open fire on each other, when surely those ships had huge numbers of crew and staff onboard. Again, surely the number of lives deliberately taken and lost due to being in the crossfire was much higher in proportion to the number of lives saved in the end than the ratio of Earth's population to that of two entire universes.

Therefore, if it's truly Cap's position that it's never, ever acceptable to weigh lives against each other, that you can't allow for the loss of any number of innocents in order to save any greater number of lives, period - he wouldn't have fought the Nazis or the Builders, since both those wars inevitably resulted in the loss of innocent lives due to his and his allies' actions.

[vitruvian]

Nothing. It all fails. Except, because of Namur status as hero/villa /king he will get a pass.

You think nothing happens if they don't destroy (not kill, evacuation is an option according to NA) one of the Earths?

[Darthkostis]

Not gonna happen, but I'd love to see Thanos smash Captain Mary Sue's head like a grape. He's just such an insufferable c*nt when he realises that he simply doesn't have anything to contribute to these situations. You just aren't a genius Cap, accept it and move on.

[MichaelAngel0]

The moral absolutism also doesn't quite jibe with Cap's history as a soldier and commander in WWII, or more recently in Infinity. I mean, I loved Gruenwald's Cap back in the day, but his absolutism about killing never made sense back then either.

In WWII, Cap was frozen prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I could see him disagreeing with Truman's decision in that matter, but it's not as though that was the beginning of strategic bombing that caused massive civilian casualties in the war, and Steve Rogers never seems to have expressed any doubt as to the moral rectitude of the Allies in prosecuting the war. To the extent that the Allies winning ultimately saved lives and misery across the world, the number of lives taken as collateral damage by Allied attacks would have to be a far, far higher proportion of those saved than the population of Earth is in comparison to the population of two entire universes.

Likewise, in Infinity, Cap had no qualms about engaging in wartime actions up to and including arranging for world-destroyer ships to open fire on each other, when surely those ships had huge numbers of crew and staff onboard. Again, surely the number of lives deliberately taken and lost due to being in the crossfire was much higher in proportion to the number of lives saved in the end than the ratio of Earth's population to that of two entire universes.

Therefore, if it's truly Cap's position that it's never, ever acceptable to weigh lives against each other, that you can't allow for the loss of any number of innocents in order to save any greater number of lives, period - he wouldn't have fought the Nazis or the Builders, since both those wars inevitably resulted in the loss of innocent lives due to his and his allies' actions.

Captain Mary Sue at his finest.

[vitruvian]

As for Stark, I think he preferred a fight to having to explain things. I also think that he saw it as a foregone conclusion...like when they mind wiped Cap he said "why do you always have to be like this". I think Tony just has a preconceived notion about how Steve will act, and takes it as a given.

And I can't say I blame him either. Cap can definitely be a bit holier than thou.

Sure, but that doesn't explain why he doesn't tell everybody else exactly what the stakes are... not just their Earth, but two entire universes at a time. Hyperion at least might be inclined to prioritize figuring out how to save everybody over taking out those who've been considering immoral means of doing so, given this version's origin in an Incursion.

[hawkeyefan]

The moral absolutism also doesn't quite jibe with Cap's history as a soldier and commander in WWII, or more recently in Infinity. I mean, I loved Gruenwald's Cap back in the day, but his absolutism about killing never made sense back then either.

In WWII, Cap was frozen prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I could see him disagreeing with Truman's decision in that matter, but it's not as though that was the beginning of strategic bombing that caused massive civilian casualties in the war, and Steve Rogers never seems to have expressed any doubt as to the moral rectitude of the Allies in prosecuting the war. To the extent that the Allies winning ultimately saved lives and misery across the world, the number of lives taken as collateral damage by Allied attacks would have to be a far, far higher proportion of those saved than the population of Earth is in comparison to the population of two entire universes.

Likewise, in Infinity, Cap had no qualms about engaging in wartime actions up to and including arranging for world-destroyer ships to open fire on each other, when surely those ships had huge numbers of crew and staff onboard. Again, surely the number of lives deliberately taken and lost due to being in the crossfire was much higher in proportion to the number of lives saved in the end than the ratio of Earth's population to that of two entire universes.

Therefore, if it's truly Cap's position that it's never, ever acceptable to weigh lives against each other, that you can't allow for the loss of any number of innocents in order to save any greater number of lives, period - he wouldn't have fought the Nazis or the Builders, since both those wars inevitably resulted in the loss of innocent lives due to his and his allies' actions.

I think he meant innocent lives.

Cap killed in a Gruenwald story. He killed a terrorist to save an innocent. That's weighing lives. He's willing to kill if necessary. I think his speech here contradicts that stance.

[XPac]

Not gonna happen, but I'd love to see Thanos smash Captain Mary Sue's head like a grape. He's just such an insufferable c*nt when he realises that he simply doesn't have anything to contribute to these situations. You just aren't a genius Cap, accept it and move on.

Steve's certainly not a genius. But he does have a pretty good track record of being right in the end, while the Illuminati have a track record of being wrong.

I think what Steve potentially contributes is the very thing the Illuminati often lacked... a greater sense of humanity in handling things they way they do. And that's why things just keep biting the Illuminati in the @$$ in the end.

[MichaelAngel0]

You think nothing happens if they don't destroy (not kill, evacuation is an option according to NA) one of the Earths?

This issue just confirmed that evacuation to a second Earth doesn't save them.

[Mahes]

Sure, but that doesn't explain why he doesn't tell everybody else exactly what the stakes are... not just their Earth, but two entire universes at a time. Hyperion at least might be inclined to prioritize figuring out how to save everybody over taking out those who've been considering immoral means of doing so, given this version's origin in an Incursion.

Out of the current Avengers roster, Hyperion knows the stakes more than anyone. I wonder if they'll show him or other Avengers members defecting to the Illuminati's position.

[vitruvian]

Cap has been to the future. He knows that Earth somehow survives, he knows that The Avengers definitely do in different forms. The question is how many people have to die inbetween now and that future, and how many people can he potentially save.

He's also been to different futures before, and knows that the future can be changed by his actions in the present... so you'd think he'd be at least slightly concerned about the possibility that the only reason those future Earths were still around was because of something he's about to stop Tony from doing, so that he'll end up dooming the planet or the universe.

[hawkeyefan]

Sure, but that doesn't explain why he doesn't tell everybody else exactly what the stakes are... not just their Earth, but two entire universes at a time. Hyperion at least might be inclined to prioritize figuring out how to save everybody over taking out those who've been considering immoral means of doing so, given this version's origin in an Incursion.

Sure, but like I said, I think he saw a fight as unavoidable, so he decided why not throw the first punch? If Cap's already talked to this group of Avengers, chances are they're already on his side.

As for Hyperion....I don't know if Stark would really consider him useful since he failed to stop the incursion that destroyed his world.

[MichaelAngel0]

Out of the current Avengers roster, Hyperion knows the stakes more than anyone. I wonder if they'll show him or other Avengers members defecting to the Illuminati's position.

Maybe not, as the Illuminati still built world killers.

[Mahes]

Maybe not, as the Illuminati still built world killers.

True but it was always the last option. Even the fact that they didn't pull the trigger might convince the others.

[XPac]

Yup, he'll tell them....8 months later....

Honestly I don't think the point of not seeing that discussion on panel is that he's hiding it from everyone. I just think that discussion is probably it's own book.

But we'll see. Maybe you're right and Steve is intentionally keeping all this from everyone. I just personally don't think that's what he would do.

[Andy]

This issue had some great character moments with Cap, but I don't think it crossed the edge over into a "great" read. The ridiculous wannabe pseudo-science that has been prevalent throughout this arc was back in full effect and just as senseless as ever.


It was a good issue, but I'm glad the trip is over the and the mungo-jumbo can cease and we can get back to the major issue at play.

7/10 imho.