Jeanette Kahn and Dan Didio eras

[CTTT]

It seems like with Kahn's leadership as publisher she kind of let writers/creators have free reign and while it wasn't perfect she seemed content to let characters develop and grow. The Titans were doing great with Dick as Nightwing, Batman flourished. Zero Hour was kind of a blip but other than that it was a good era. So why did Dan Didio, once he came on board in 2002 try to systematically undo everything that Kahn had done? He had a real hankering to do a scorched earth policy with certain characters despite popularity. What was going on at that time in the industry to warrant that change? He was a real black mark on DC and it's going to take a little while yet to get his stink off.

[I'm a Fish]

I'm not and expert of behind the scenes stuff with DC editorial, I think it was just Didio letting his inner fanboy stand in the way of progress. I don't think it was any personal malice toward Kahn at all, I think it was just "I like this era and I want DC to stay in this era" kind-of mindset.

I could be off, but that's how I view it at least.

[superduperman]

I would argue it was kind of the other way around. Kahn understood this is a business. And you do what's best for the business. They rebooted Superman. That was unheard of at the time. But it was a necessary business move. Whether or not I personally agreed with every decision she made, she understood these are not her personal toys to play with. Didio didn't seem to understand that. He seemed to think he could reshape the universe to suit his personal tastes. The market be damned. Even when he seemed to have a good idea, he sabotaged it himself. Like the New 52. Kahn ran a tight ship. There were carved in stone rules that had to be followed. Didio just wanted complete control without any regard for anyone else. Didio liked playing the "heel" to the fans. As if that's his job. With Kahn, most people didn't even know what she looked like. She was behind the scenes and trusted her editors to do their jobs.

[John Venus]

Yeah, Didio may talk like a business man. But at heart he was a fanboy and it was obvious he was letting his personal preferences influence his decisions even if said decisions were bad for business.

[RobinGA]

I think the truth is that those in charge always have their own agendas.
They want to put in place what they consider to be best practices.
I will leave it to others who know more about the behind the scenes workings at
DC to comment on Kahn.

But it isn't true that she was always hands off. I do know she was one who clamped
down hard on what she considered to be too sexual presentations of Power Girl.
I'm sure there are other examples.

[MRP]

Khan came from publishing and approached the position as a publisher. Publishers are about running the operation, getting the best product made possible and not about being hands on with the content. They are hired because of their administrative acumen and vision for the business.

Didio came from entertainment/television and approached the position as a show runner. Show runners are more about being hands on on the content as well as getting the best product made. They are hired because of their creative vision as well as their administrative acumen.

Each was hired because of their track record in their previous positions and the strengths they demonstrated at those positions. Each approached their job based on the skill sets they had demonstrated at the previous position they had held.

When Kahn was hired as publisher they were looking for someone with her skill set and approach. When Didio was hired they were looking for someone with his skill set and approach. It's not surprising they approached the job differently as they each came to it by different paths and had different skillsets in their toolbox. But each also did exactly what they were hired to do, results/success notwithstanding. You don't hire someone with a showrunner television/entertainment background unless you want them to take a hands on approach in shaping content. Dc knew exactly what kind of approach Didio would take in that regard and hired him because of that, not despite that. They weren't hiring him to do what Jeanette Khan had done despite them both holding the same position. They were hiring him to do what he could do and had done at his position. If DC had wanted someone to continue Khan's approach, they would have hired someone with that kind of skillset and experience for the position, but they wanted a change in approach and a different approach in Khan, so they hired someone with a different skillset and experience.

Dido didn't fail because he didn't take Khan's approach. If he had, he either would not have been hired or let go much sooner because Dc did not wan to continue Khan's approach. They wanted someone in the position who would be more hands on in shaping the direction of content and Didio did exactly that. Whether you like his vision or approach, or whether that approach was ultimately successful or not. he was doing exactly what he was hired to do.


-M

[superduperman]

I think there's a difference between being more hands on and saying "I personally don't like Dick or Wally so I'm going to deliberately sabotage them". Which is what Didio did. It's one thing to be of a more entertainment division guy, it's another thing to completely disregard what fans want. I don't think all of his ideas were bad. New 52 could have worked if he hadn't insisted on controlling every aspect of it.

[MRP]

I think there's a difference between being more hands on and saying "I personally don't like Dick or Wally so I'm going to deliberately sabotage them". Which is what Didio did. It's one thing to be of a more entertainment division guy, it's another thing to completely disregard what fans want. I don't think all of his ideas were bad. New 52 could have worked if he hadn't insisted on controlling every aspect of it.

Catering to what fans want is a recipe for disaster every time. Fans are not monolithic, and for every vocal fan who voices what they want, there are dozens of silent one who only speak with their wallets who want something different. As a creator, you have to trust your own judgment (whether sound or not) rather than playing the guess what will appease the audience game, which never produces a winner.

-M

[BohemiaDrinker]

The idea that Khan was hands off is not really correct, though. She did kept most to her job -as publisher, not trying to be EiC at the same time, like Didio - but she made some pretty controversial calls and some pretty big mistakes. The main difference is that she learned from them and tried to correct them. I was told, for instance, that it was Khan who decided that Perez Wonder Woman origin was to be set present day, which threw the first wrench on post-crisis continuity. We have also to remember how massive an undertaking was COIE at this time, and how much pressure she was under: only a few years earlier she fought a battle with the head opf WB and won, keeping DC Comics as a functioning company instead of being closed and having its properties licensed. At the early eighties, DC was on the verge of being sold out to Marvel as well: COIE was the project that avoided this.

Now, Didio was another beast altogether: while he came from TV and was put into the company by Paul Levitz suggestion, he pretty much believed that his job was to turn DC into an ip farm for WB to harvest: his time as EiC was already covered in attempts at both media synergy and franchise streamlining. This was public knowledge and he said so himself many times. While still looking for a formula to make his mark, he was convinced that he could replicate the success he had with Green Lantern Rebirth into pretty much everything. And so Dan started his quest to devolve DC into a bronze age status quo while experimenting with several forms of publication and distribution. In one of those, he was successful: 52 made the weekly model viable and functional again, and the bookstore market was - and continues to be - catered to better than ever. The other one, not so much. Didio's obsession with streamlining franchises and continuity started to backfire around Flash Rebirth, probably the first project of his that, although profitable in the short term fell largely flat with readers. And that was the point where his ego started to show: his doubling on DC having a particular status quo alienated quite a few readers, and his micro management - trying to emulate the Marvel Way from the Stan Lee times - alienated quite a few creators. He got too stuck in his ways and too involved in corporate tug of wars, the consequence being that DC's continuity was left in the worst state of its history. Some of the decisions he took to keep the ship afloat behind the scenes - like how he handled Eddie Berganza or even EVS for a while - would also start to look bad really soon.

At the end of the day, while Khan (and also Levitz) mostly realized when they went too far and course corrected, Didio was too enamorated with his own vision, and prepared to let DC sink: either his DCU worked, or there was no DCU.

Catering to what fans want is a recipe for disaster every time.

It really isn't though. That's a truism that gets repeated a lot and is easily disproven. Green Lantern Rebirth, DCU Rebirth, Superman status quo reversal after Convergence and a lot of other examples are pretty much "giving fans exactly what they are asking for" and being pretty successful because of it. A creator or manager incapable of looking at themselves and asking "Wait, am I wrong here?" is a bad one.

[MRP]

The idea that Khan was hands off is not really correct, though. She did kept most to her job -as publisher, not trying to be EiC at the same time, like Didio - but she made some pretty controversial calls and some pretty big mistakes. The main difference is that she learned from them and tried to correct them. I was told, for instance, that it was Khan who decided that Perez Wonder Woman origin was to be set present day, which threw the first wrench on post-crisis continuity. We have also to remember how massive an undertaking was COIE at this time, and how much pressure she was under: only a few years earlier she fought a battle with the head opf WB and won, keeping DC Comics as a functioning company instead of being closed and having its properties licensed. At the early eighties, DC was on the verge of being sold out to Marvel as well: COIE was the project that avoided this.

Now, Didio was another beast altogether: while he came from TV and was put into the company by Paul Levitz suggestion, he pretty much believed that his job was to turn DC into an ip farm for WB to harvest: his time as EiC was already covered in attempts at both media synergy and franchise streamlining. This was public knowledge and he said so himself many times. While still looking for a formula to make his mark, he was convinced that he could replicate the success he had with Green Lantern Rebirth into pretty much everything. And so Dan started his quest to devolve DC into a bronze age status quo while experimenting with several forms of publication and distribution. In one of those, he was successful: 52 made the weekly model viable and functional again, and the bookstore market was - and continues to be - catered to better than ever. The other one, not so much. Didio's obsession with streamlining franchises and continuity started to backfire around Flash Rebirth, probably the first project of his that, although profitable in the short term fell largely flat with readers. And that was the point where his ego started to show: his doubling on DC having a particular status quo alienated quite a few readers, and his micro management - trying to emulate the Marvel Way from the Stan Lee times - alienated quite a few creators. He got too stuck in his ways and too involved in corporate tug of wars, the consequence being that DC's continuity was left in the worst state of its history. Some of the decisions he took to keep the ship afloat behind the scenes - like how he handled Eddie Berganza or even EVS for a while - would also start to look bad really soon.

At the end of the day, while Khan (and also Levitz) mostly realized when they went too far and course corrected, Didio was too enamorated with his own vision, and prepared to let DC sink: either his DCU worked, or there was no DCU.




It really isn't though. That's a truism that gets repeated a lot and is easily disproven. Green Lantern Rebirth, DCU Rebirth, Superman status quo reversal after Convergence and a lot of other examples are pretty much "giving fans exactly what they are asking for" and being pretty successful because of it. A creator or manager incapable of looking at themselves and asking "Wait, am I wrong here?" is a bad one.

Giving customers what they want is often successful, giving fans what they want is a different story. There's a difference between customer and fan. And, as a whole, the comic industry has catered to fans rather than customers since the early 80s and watched its customer base erode away without attracting new customers, to the point where comics went from a mainstream entertainment medium to a niche collector hobby product because their product catered to fans not customers, and failed to keep the audience/customer base growing and renewing. There were certainly other factors at play, but the failure to bring new customers into the market was the primary reason for this attrition of the customer base.


-M

[married guy]

Giving customers what they want is often successful, giving fans what they want is a different story. There's a difference between customer and fan. And, as a whole, the comic industry has catered to fans rather than customers since the early 80s and watched its customer base erode away without attracting new customers, to the point where comics went from a mainstream entertainment medium to a niche collector hobby product because their product catered to fans not customers, and failed to keep the audience/customer base growing and renewing. There were certainly other factors at play, but the failure to bring new customers into the market was the primary reason for this attrition of the customer base.


-M

While this is certainly true, it also makes things difficult when you're asking $5 an issue!

[Will Evans]

The idea that Khan was hands off is not really correct, though. She did kept most to her job -as publisher, not trying to be EiC at the same time, like Didio - but she made some pretty controversial calls and some pretty big mistakes. The main difference is that she learned from them and tried to correct them. I was told, for instance, that it was Khan who decided that Perez Wonder Woman origin was to be set present day, which threw the first wrench on post-crisis continuity. We have also to remember how massive an undertaking was COIE at this time, and how much pressure she was under: only a few years earlier she fought a battle with the head opf WB and won, keeping DC Comics as a functioning company instead of being closed and having its properties licensed. At the early eighties, DC was on the verge of being sold out to Marvel as well: COIE was the project that avoided this.

Now, Didio was another beast altogether: while he came from TV and was put into the company by Paul Levitz suggestion, he pretty much believed that his job was to turn DC into an ip farm for WB to harvest: his time as EiC was already covered in attempts at both media synergy and franchise streamlining. This was public knowledge and he said so himself many times. While still looking for a formula to make his mark, he was convinced that he could replicate the success he had with Green Lantern Rebirth into pretty much everything. And so Dan started his quest to devolve DC into a bronze age status quo while experimenting with several forms of publication and distribution. In one of those, he was successful: 52 made the weekly model viable and functional again, and the bookstore market was - and continues to be - catered to better than ever. The other one, not so much. Didio's obsession with streamlining franchises and continuity started to backfire around Flash Rebirth, probably the first project of his that, although profitable in the short term fell largely flat with readers. And that was the point where his ego started to show: his doubling on DC having a particular status quo alienated quite a few readers, and his micro management - trying to emulate the Marvel Way from the Stan Lee times - alienated quite a few creators. He got too stuck in his ways and too involved in corporate tug of wars, the consequence being that DC's continuity was left in the worst state of its history. Some of the decisions he took to keep the ship afloat behind the scenes - like how he handled Eddie Berganza or even EVS for a while - would also start to look bad really soon.

At the end of the day, while Khan (and also Levitz) mostly realized when they went too far and course corrected, Didio was too enamorated with his own vision, and prepared to let DC sink: either his DCU worked, or there was no DCU.




It really isn't though. That's a truism that gets repeated a lot and is easily disproven. Green Lantern Rebirth, DCU Rebirth, Superman status quo reversal after Convergence and a lot of other examples are pretty much "giving fans exactly what they are asking for" and being pretty successful because of it. A creator or manager incapable of looking at themselves and asking "Wait, am I wrong here?" is a bad one.

What happened with Didio and Eddie Berganza and EVS?

[SiegePerilous02]

Catering to what fans want is a recipe for disaster every time. Fans are not monolithic, and for every vocal fan who voices what they want, there are dozens of silent one who only speak with their wallets who want something different. As a creator, you have to trust your own judgment (whether sound or not) rather than playing the guess what will appease the audience game, which never produces a winner.

-M

IDK, by a lot of accounts Nightwing is a reliable seller and merchandise with his logo moves steady units. So doing stuff like shooting him in the head or trying to kill him off during Infinite Crisis seems like a boneheaded move. I can't imagine what sound judgement went into those creative decisions and stuff like doing HiC to Wally West. I agree with your stance that the industry satisfying fans over customers lead to the genre becoming more and more niche, but some of DiDio's decisions come across as a promoted fanboy shaping things the way he wants them and not necessarily putting customers or fans first. Kahn seems more the type who put customers first, even if I didn't like a lot of the creative choices made during her time. COIE is awful, but she was facing Marvel buying them out as an alternative so we got what we got.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Giving customers what they want is often successful, giving fans what they want is a different story. There's a difference between customer and fan. And, as a whole, the comic industry has catered to fans rather than customers since the early 80s and watched its customer base erode away without attracting new customers, to the point where comics went from a mainstream entertainment medium to a niche collector hobby product because their product catered to fans not customers, and failed to keep the audience/customer base growing and renewing. There were certainly other factors at play, but the failure to bring new customers into the market was the primary reason for this attrition of the customer base.


-M

I could agree with you if I believed the distinction between customer and fan to be a a clear cut as you put it, but it is not. And we all know the ups and downs of the industry in the last 40 years or so: declining sales and non-renewal of customer base has way more to do with the long lasting consequences of the speculator bubble bursting in the mid 90's, the distortions of the direct market and, more recently, the several new forms of media and technology chipping away at people's attention budget. It has very, very little to do with the content of the books, if it has anything.

Regardless, call it fan reaction or customer reaction, Didio's refusal to acknowledge and correct his mistakes and unpopular decision caused way more harm than good both financially and to DC's image as a company. All of that is so well documented that I don't even see the point in discussing it.

What happened with Didio and Eddie Berganza and EVS?

Let's just say that they stood at DC for quite a while longer than they should have, and leave it that.

[OBrianTallent]

The only thing I would correct here is the differentiation between fan and customer. You want the customers to become fans, you want them to return and bring others with them...that's the definition of a fan. Didio didn't care about fans at all. His intention behind the New 52 was to attract the buyers who were buying comics in the 90's...the Image costumers. His specifically pointed out the hyper-violence of the comics at that time, the creators who were high profile. He didn't understand how to move forward and create a brand only to retread what had come before. It got lots of attention at the time because it was the first line wide reboot in almost 30 years. It failed, then we got Rebirth which showed more positive fan reaction, Then when Geoff Johns was removed from his position of influence, Dan tried to take everything back to how he wanted it. It didn't matter that the Rebirth idea was a popular one, that characters that were asked for by fans were pushed aside again...he wanted his way. He was completely incapable of seeing potential outside of his own ego.