Uber powerful heroes with limited weaknesses are harder to keep interesting.

[lemonpeace]

If a writer has to reel in Superman to make their story work, they probably shouldn't be writing Superman in the first place and would be better suited to a mid-tier or street level character.

Morrison employs weaknesses like Kryptonite and red sun energy to depower Superman at various points in their stories, in both All-Star and Actionc Comics. Otherwise, they are only guilty of having Superman win at the end of the day against all odds which is....pretty much superhero writing 101. Across the boards, the superheroes always win. Morrison writes Superman as the most powerful hero ever, but they raise the threats to his level instead of nerfing him to fit their story. Bizarroworld, Solaris, Vyndktvx and even Lex are all presented as valid threats in those stories that are worthy of a character of Superman's level. Which is how you should be approaching characters like Superman, Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel.

his powers need to be reeled in because they have been inflated, simple as that. if you are a race that can punch apart universes, break reality, and regularly power through your own weaknesses, the near extinction of that race makes no sense. Morrison and Johns will play with the weaknesses but ultimately their Superman wank wins out because they'll throw in some fanon nonsense like "oh he's so perfect he has a supermind and he has a supervoice" or "he's the literal center of the universe" or "he's flying through the heart of a red star and didn't get vaporized" Superman had limits not just weakness, but nowadays he doesn't really function like he has either. they are just stop gap measures for this notion that he's god and untouchable. there is a reason that Superman specifically always gets hit with people complaining about powerful characters; because it's unearned and lazily applied. it's poorly done powercreep.

although I will actually give Morrison his credit, I heard he reeled Clark's power in his older age a bit in Superman and the Authority. I can respect that.

[JackDaw]

Why do Green Lantern and Flash never get mentioned when discussing the “difficulty” of Uber powered heroes?

I’ve seen arguments that Flash being Uber-powered doesn’t matter because he has “all the weaknesses of being just a human”.

Really not sure how anybody who has read a reasonable number of Flash comics in last 30 years can seriously advance that argument.

Put it this way, I’m about half way through the Mark Waid run, and have yet to come across any issue where Flash displayed a normal human physical weakness. Does running round the world tire him? (No!) Does his super fast metabolism protect him from poison (Yes!) Can bullets hurt him? (No!)

Basically his speed powers are limitless…and Mark Waid increases his powers exponentially as run progresses. Yet many regard this run as one of the great DC runs.

And as for Green Lantern…not sure what it is he can’t do.

[SiegePerilous02]

his powers need to be reeled in because they have been inflated, simple as that. if you are a race that can punch apart universes, break reality, and regularly power through your own weaknesses, the near extinction of that race makes no sense. Morrison and Johns will play with the weaknesses but ultimately their Superman wank wins out because they'll throw in some fanon nonsense like "oh he's so perfect he has a supermind and he has a supervoice" or "he's the literal center of the universe" or "he's flying through the heart of a red star and didn't get vaporized" Superman had limits not just weakness, but nowadays he doesn't really function like he has either. they are just stop gap measures for this notion that he's god and untouchable. there is a reason that Superman specifically always gets hit with people complaining about powerful characters; because it's unearned and lazily applied. it's poorly done powercreep.

although I will actually give Morrison his credit, I heard he reeled Clark's power in his older age a bit in Superman and the Authority. I can respect that.

The Superman wank is nowhere near as bad as the Bat-Wank we frequently get all across the board, and Batman has no powers to justify any of it. Most people who complain that Superman is too powerful don't actually read his stories or know his lore to get an informed opinion, or they say he's boring and too powerful but then turn around and say their favorite could beat him and don't see the disconnect. Their opinions can largely be ignored.

They are a race that reached near extinction while they were on their home planet and when it blew up. They don't have Superman-level powers on their home planet, that's Superman Lore 101 that everyone knows.

Superheroes overcome their limits and weaknesses to win the day. ALL of them do, it's the entire point of the inspirational stories being told with them. Actual good writers just know how to differentiate between the needs and premises of different heroes and scale things differently. A Spider-Man or Daredevil level problem would be boring if presented for Superman, but they shouldn't do that in the first place. And if you actually read All-Star, his flying through the sun actually created the problem he faced in the story, he didn't come out unscathged. And he had to solve some situations in that story with his wits, not his powers. And his being an inspirational figure for others ended up returning the favor when he needed help: across All-Star and Action, he gets help from Lois, Jimmy, Krypto, Zibarro, Leo Quintum, the Legion, the Cometeers, etc. An invincible hero wouldn't need help the way Morrison writes Superman as needing. So there isn't OTT Super Wank.

Something similar happened in Morrison's WW Earth One books. Despite the overall story being more grounded than their usual work and there being iffy ideas in other areas, the moment where Psycho asks Diana if there are any limits to her abilities and she responds "Should there be?" is great. No Wonder Woman, there shouldn't be. The premise of such heroes is to see them conquer impossible challenges. Raise the challenges to be worthy of such heroes, don't nerf them to make a subpar writing job easier.

[NaVi]

his powers need to be reeled in because they have been inflated, simple as that. if you are a race that can punch apart universes, break reality, and regularly power through your own weaknesses, the near extinction of that race makes no sense. Morrison and Johns will play with the weaknesses but ultimately their Superman wank wins out because they'll throw in some fanon nonsense like "oh he's so perfect he has a supermind and he has a supervoice" or "he's the literal center of the universe" or "he's flying through the heart of a red star and didn't get vaporized" Superman had limits not just weakness, but nowadays he doesn't really function like he has either. they are just stop gap measures for this notion that he's god and untouchable. there is a reason that Superman specifically always gets hit with people complaining about powerful characters; because it's unearned and lazily applied. it's poorly done powercreep.

although I will actually give Morrison his credit, I heard he reeled Clark's power in his older age a bit in Superman and the Authority. I can respect that.

Batman defeated the entire JL being only a human, that the earth needs protection with millions of humans does not make sense. humans have infinite weaknesses but batman overcomes them all with his supermind and being the center of the dark multiverse, WW hit batman's head against the ground with all his might and batman did not receive a scratch. It is fun how superman and the rest of the super beings are criticized for being powerful, but Batman the normal human who defeats them all and treats them like children is seen as a great character.

[Stanlos]

Why do Green Lantern and Flash never get mentioned when discussing the “difficulty” of Uber powered heroes?

I’ve seen arguments that Flash being Uber-powered doesn’t matter because he has “all the weaknesses of being just a human”.

Really not sure how anybody who has read a reasonable number of Flash comics in last 30 years can seriously advance that argument.

Put it this way, I’m about half way through the Mark Waid run, and have yet to come across any issue where Flash displayed a normal human physical weakness. Does running round the world tire him? (No!) Does his super fast metabolism protect him from poison (Yes!) Can bullets hurt him? (No!)

Basically his speed powers are limitless…and Mark Waid increases his powers exponentially as run progresses. Yet many regard this run as one of the great DC runs.

And as for Green Lantern…not sure what it is he can’t do.

Because they have obvious human weaknesses exploitable by many.

[JackDaw]

Because they have obvious human weaknesses exploitable by many.

In the long acclaimed Waid and John’s Flash runs when did one of the villains use an “obvious” human weakness to defeat Wally?

When Wally or Barry is at their peak…able to heal with super speed…and phase through solid objects…tell me what the “obvious” human weakness is. Really don’t see it. (Effectively what happened it that all the main foes powers were ramped up enormously.)


If we’re talking about exploiting human attachments to friends and family…then Superman has exactly the same “weakness”.

[Baron of Faltine]

In the long acclaimed Waid and John’s Flash runs when did one of the villains use an “obvious” human weakness to defeat Wally?

When Wally or Barry is at their peak…able to heal with super speed…and phase through solid objects…tell me what the “obvious” human weakness is. Really don’t see it. (Effectively what happened it that all the main foes powers were ramped up enormously.)


If we’re talking about exploiting human attachments to friends and family…then Superman has exactly the same “weakness”.

I agree with you, about this.
But OP still give food for thoughts (despite the usual risk for derailing in a nth supermanvsbatman thing) as he did not said that extremely powerfull character are unusable but that they are harder to write than street level, and with that we can all agree.
In mangas, who were brought up in a lair of replies, this eventually evolve in two pathways: either there is a general power creep, that fan do not appreciate as much as one could thing, ask any DragonBall fan about; or the uberp9werful hero is mostly a force of nature and the real story si mostly the impact of his actions on the rest of the cast and the world at large. Genos, King and Garou are much more interesting than Saitama, who is almost a guest star in his own comic.(BTW have everyone noticed that all the S heroes..are kind a warped version of superman's villains gallery...or is just me?)
In he big two Western comics as someone already pointed out the main issues is that the shared universe means there is not the only one "main character" with all the perked that come with the role. There are others with same dignity and value as anyone. Consequence: you cannot be too overbearing and that is why Flash is always slower than he should be, superman is always mind controlled here and there, Thor is suddenly unworthy, Hulk go mad and tricked against his teammates, Wolverine is te temporarily vaporized(because there is also the opposite issue of aversion powered characters who get their abilities upgraded to make them survive in the shared universe) and Jean Grey and half Jordan bok their head and get unconscious...so often we all wonder if their quite effed up face/heel turn wasn't the result of an undiagnosed brain damage (is not it weird that those two share so much ..they both have also being called boring but occasional readers...is so weird!)

[JackDaw]

I agree with you, about this.
But OP still give food for thoughts (despite the usual risk for derailing in a nth supermanvsbatman thing) as he did not said that extremely powerfull character are unusable but that they are harder to write than street level, and with that we can all agree.
In mangas, who were brought up in a lair of replies, this eventually evolve in two pathways: either there is a general power creep, that fan do not appreciate as much as one could thing, ask any DragonBall fan about; or the uberp9werful hero is mostly a force of nature and the real story si mostly the impact of his actions on the rest of the cast and the world at large. Genos, King and Garou are much more interesting than Saitama, who is almost a guest star in his own comic.(BTW have everyone noticed that all the S heroes..are kind a warped version of superman's villains gallery...or is just me?)
In he big two Western comics as someone already pointed out the main issues is that the shared universe means there is not the only one "main character" with all the perked that come with the role. There are others with same dignity and value as anyone. Consequence: you cannot be too overbearing and that is why Flash is always slower than he should be, superman is always mind controlled here and there, Thor is suddenly unworthy, Hulk go mad and tricked against his teammates, Wolverine is te temporarily vaporized(because there is also the opposite issue of aversion powered characters who get their abilities upgraded to make them survive in the shared universe) and Jean Grey and half Jordan bok their head and get unconscious...so often we all wonder if their quite effed up face/heel turn wasn't the result of an undiagnosed brain damage (is not it weird that those two share so much ..they both have also being called boring but occasional readers...is so weird!)

I agree with all this.

From a pure story telling point of view, DC and Marvel have both got the same issue: some of the characters have become such a brand that they are used relentlessly in stories that don’t really suit them just because their mere appearance boosts sales.

[Lightning Rider]

The power level is only a problem because mainstream comics are locked into a certain plot structure, so some external challenge that has to be fought with powers is the basic plot and the writers can't find a way to do that without using a physical weakness. Yet when writers don't have to conform to these plot expectations, there's a lot they can do with powerful characters. How many years did SANDMAN go for and it only stopped because the writer wanted it to end. Alan Moore never ran out of ideas for SUPREME and other titles featuring characters with big powers. The reason those writers could do that is because they could invent all different kinds of plots that didn't depend on the typical formula. They got inside the heads of the characters and their own self-imposed rules. But this is not the kind of plotting you get in mainstream comics.

Totally agree. The powers and visuals are icing on the cake, the cake being the character & story.

[mathew101281]

Why do Green Lantern and Flash never get mentioned when discussing the “difficulty” of Uber powered heroes?

I’ve seen arguments that Flash being Uber-powered doesn’t matter because he has “all the weaknesses of being just a human”.

Really not sure how anybody who has read a reasonable number of Flash comics in last 30 years can seriously advance that argument.

Put it this way, I’m about half way through the Mark Waid run, and have yet to come across any issue where Flash displayed a normal human physical weakness. Does running round the world tire him? (No!) Does his super fast metabolism protect him from poison (Yes!) Can bullets hurt him? (No!)

Basically his speed powers are limitless…and Mark Waid increases his powers exponentially as run progresses. Yet many regard this run as one of the great DC runs.

And as for Green Lantern…not sure what it is he can’t do.

In Flashes case you have a point. But Green Lanterns have been seriously depowered in recent years. If I had a nickel for every time I’ve seen some superstrong character “power” through a green lanterns construct, I’d be rich.

[Jim Kelly]

I remember in GREEN LANTERN 100 (May 1998)--on sale May 13th, 1998--Kyle goes back in time and happens to meet Hal in a battle with Sinestro. He actually crosses over into the story that happened in GREEN LANTERN 9 (November-December 1961) and because Kyle is there the events unfold differently. But the original story--"Battle of the Power Batteries"--was reprinted in a "Lost Annual," GREEN LANTERN ANNUAL 1 (1998), on sale May 6th, 1998, just the week before GREEN LANTERN 100. In the original story, Sinestro has trapped G.L. in a cage with yellow bars. The Emerald Gladiator's power ring has slipped from his finger and stuck to the power battery. The Korugar renegade uses his yellow power ring to command--"Green Lantern you can never break out of that cage . . ." Because he's bound by that command, Green Lantern can't break out, but Hal reasons that if he's not the Green Lantern, then he can break out of the cage through normal means. So he removes his green garb and as Hal Jordan breaks out of the cage.

This is a typical old school plot, which follows its own formula. But what I like about that formula is it's more than a physical challenge. Hal, Barry, Clark, Bruce, Ray, Carter, Adam would be faced with some of kind of challenge--a cage, a new weapon, a novel attack--and they would have to think around it to come up with a solution that powers alone couldn't resolve. Hal has to think in a non-linear way to come up with the answer to the challenge of the yellow cage.

I grant you that weaknesses like Kryptonite, yellow, fire, slippery ice, a surprise punch were used in a lazy way in a lot of old school plots--as a narrative short cut to take out the hero in a story that might only be thirteen pages and had to end in that issue. But when the heroes overcame these challenges through their own cleverness, the pay-off was worth it. I guess I'm a sucker for thinking heroes. Battles of powers are not my bag--and that seems to be main thing these days--blasts of colourful lights. I'd rather the hero had some Gordian Knot he had to solve through unconventional means. Like if Supergirl's unconscious body has travelled beyond conventional space into the realm of the dead and the Spectre stops Superman from pursuing her, because the Man of Steel cannot go where mortals dare not go, then what is to be done? This is not a problem that can be solved by powers--it requires deep thought.

[scary harpy]

I agree with you, about this.
But OP still give food for thoughts (despite the usual risk for derailing in a nth supermanvsbatman thing) as he did not said that extremely powerfull character are unusable but that they are harder to write than street level, and with that we can all agree.
...

I agree with all this.

From a pure story telling point of view, DC and Marvel have both got the same issue: some of the characters have become such a brand that they are used relentlessly in stories that don’t really suit them just because their mere appearance boosts sales.

I also agree.

But let's not read that and move on too quickly.

To challenge Batman, an opponent needs a gadget, a scheme, a schtick and a Halloween costume. Admittedly a minor challenge...but still a challenge.

To challenge Superman, an opponent needs...so, so very much more.

The uber powerful character needs an uber powerful challenge...or I lose interest.

I can't believe Luthor, Toyman, Puzzler or Prankster are threats to Superman. I can believe they could be great threats to Batman...but only minor annoyances to Superman.

My suspension of disbelief can only be stretched so far...and then it breaks.

[Jim Kelly]

I can't believe Luthor, Toyman, Puzzler or Prankster are threats to Superman. I can believe they could be great threats to Batman...but only minor challenges to Superman.

My suspension of disbelief can only be stretched so far...and then it breaks.

I love a minor challenge. Stan Lee used this to great effect in Spider-Man, which other writers then picked up on. Peter being Peter has a mess of problems and those need his focus, but then along comes a minor villain or menace, and now he has to deal with that, too, on top of everything else going on in his life. The minor challenge is just enough to create more tension in the story--which is usually ongoing and will continue into the next issue.

Once the Schwartz era characters started having continuing arcs, the minor challenge created another hurdle for the super-hero. So it's not just Toyman--there are other things going on in Clark's life at the time--and Winslow P. Schott is diverting Clark from these other issues. Villains shouldn't always be the centrepiece of the story--they can be side plots.

Ideally, in a comic run, not every issue is the most important, life-altering, he'll never be the same again plot. We need down time from that, so when the big moments do come, they actually feel big. The minor challenges serve to put the hero through his paces but prove that he knows what he's doing and this isn't going to mess him up. So when the big challenge does come, we understand why this is such a big challenge.

The other thing is B.O.--Be Original. Superman or whoever should never use the same method twice. He should always have a different strategy for how to deal with Toyman's toy soldiers or whatever: a creative use of his power or his intelligence in ways that surprise the reader. When the Flash uses his powers to trap a Rogue, he should be using physics in novel ways--which demonstrates his understanding of science and keeps the reader from getting bored. And I like to think the reason the super-heroes do that is to keep themselves from getting bored and maybe too complacent about the challenge.

[scary harpy]

I love a minor challenge. Stan Lee used this to great effect in Spider-Man, which other writers then picked up on. Peter being Peter has a mess of problems and those need his focus, but then along comes a minor villain or menace, and now he has to deal with that, too, on top of everything else going on in his life. The minor challenge is just enough to create more tension in the story--which is usually ongoing and will continue into the next issue.

Once the Schwartz era characters started having continuing arcs, the minor challenge created another hurdle for the super-hero. So it's not just Toyman--there are other things going on in Clark's life at the time--and Winslow P. Schott is diverting Clark from these other issues. Villains shouldn't always be the centrepiece of the story--they can be side plots.

Ideally, in a comic run, not every issue is the most important, life-altering, he'll never be the same again plot. We need down time from that, so when the big moments do come, they actually feel big. The minor challenges serve to put the hero through his paces but prove that he knows what he's doing and this isn't going to mess him up. So when the big challenge does come, we understand why this is such a big challenge.

You make a great argument.

A minor annoyance could be a good read.

If Superman:

• has a date with Lois
• needs to talk with Jon
• has a deadline at work
• needs to help with a natural disaster
• has a JLA meeting
• got a message from Batman or Supergirl
• dealt with the Prankster's distraction

and the Puzzler strikes...of course he does...

This could be amusing and/or enjoyable...occasionally.

It's the equivalent of Batman fighting muggers or solving a murder.

If I'm going to be a regular reader, I require a more substantial challenge.

[Jim Kelly]

I should add it helps if the character (major or minor, villain or hero) has an interesting personality. If J. Wilbur Wolfingham or Winslow P. Schott or Oswald Chesterfield Cobblepot have entertaining personalities (with names like that they should) then it doesn't matter if they present a significant challenge. And the lead character doesn't always have to be the main focus of the story. It's a relief to read about someone else than the main hero all the time.

One of my favourite Batman stories is "The Loan Shark's Hidden Hoard," BATMAN 178 (February 1966). In that yarn appear two low-rent crooks named Rosy and Weeper. John Broome writes those two so well, it's just a fun little story to read. I wish they had been in more stories.