Original Sin: Thor & Loki #4 *Spoilers*

[Raye]

Like others I believed this may have been the last issue and was wondering how starting with Thor captured and Loki a traitor, we would get to Angela embracing Thor and Loki and heading off back to Asgard. But we didn't get to that point. We got to a point where the overconfidence Queen of Heven saw her kingdom in ruins, and Loki betray the Angels by destroying their Battle Squadron. Angela did not appear for much more than to feel bemused at Lokis goading at how well off Angela was now in Heven. We still get no idea how Angela was transported from Earth space to Heven space. And, it now seems that the only way that Angela is going to accept that she is Thors sister is by Odins direct intervention. It was truly a triumph for the two sons of Odin, Thor for his burst of fury, and Loki for his defence of Asgard. It was a real victory for Loki who is thought of as just a God of mischief, but to see this dedication, it puts Loki in a new high category.
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I am not so sure we WILL get to Angela 'embracing' her birth family. She has been raised in the Angelic culture for THOUSANDS of years, and as far as she knew she WAS an angel, just one without wings. You don't just give that up in a day or two, even if it is revealed your entire life is a lie. I think Loki realizes this, and it's why he was tempting her with the stars and adventure, rather than her Asgardian family, even though I am 99% sure he knows exactly who she is, even if Thor is too dense to grasp it right now. If he can get her to leave the angelic realm because adventure before Odin seals off the Angelic realm again, (maybe with Cul inside as well?) then she is at least in a place where they can check up on her, and she can maybe see that the Asgardians are not the evil people she has been told they are. That is likely the best they can reasonably hope for.

*edit - Oh, and while the fact that they had fleets of warships was a little strange to me as well, then I remembered that her Spawn continuity IS intact, they have said this in a few interviews, they just can't go into any detail about it in the comics for legal reasons. So they are not sealed in a little bubble, the angels do have access to the Image universe, at a minimum, which means their fleets are not necessarily useless. It was only 616 they were blocked from.

[Prof. Aegis]

Enjoyed this issue. And as some stated, no the story didn't move forward much, however, it did move just enough to show Thor was not as weak as we were lead to believe, Loki did indeed have a plan in mind and executed (literally) it in his own fashion. Curious as to what impact Odin will have on the ending and for Asgard as well. Along with Cul, what will be his next steps. Yes not much development with Angela, however what little we did see, seemed to show her questioning her current status and placement within Heven. This in turn will probably bring her next steps as to leave Heven and find a place in Asgard, where her series will then take off from.

Over all this was a very good issue and I'm am looking forward to the conclusion. This has been a great mini-series and truly can stand alone as a Thor/Loki series with little impact from Original Sin. Great Job!!

[Punisher007]

Yeah, this has been surprisingly self-contained. Original Sin mostly just served to get the ball rolling, and even that scene was basically shown in the first issue. You don't need to read the main book in order to understand this, which is impressive in a way.

[jackolover]

Enjoyed this issue. And as some stated, no the story didn't move forward much, however, it did move just enough to show Thor was not as weak as we were lead to believe, Loki did indeed have a plan in mind and executed (literally) it in his own fashion. Curious as to what impact Odin will have on the ending and for Asgard as well. Along with Cul, what will be his next steps. Yes not much development with Angela, however what little we did see, seemed to show her questioning her current status and placement within Heven. This in turn will probably bring her next steps as to leave Heven and find a place in Asgard, where her series will then take off from.

Over all this was a very good issue and I'm am looking forward to the conclusion. This has been a great mini-series and truly can stand alone as a Thor/Loki series with little impact from Original Sin. Great Job!!

Yeah, a great stand alone series, I agree. This has been the most shocking revelation of OS, that Angela is an Asgardian, and that Loki interfering again, has forced Odin to release Cul, the villain of Fear Itself. It is a Thor series about Angela, and a Loki series about Cul. Really, Marvel could have gone for a summer Event about all this, because it has such a huge impact on the Asgard franchise.

[Raye]

uh... I REALLY don't think Cul is a motivating factor with Loki, not sure where you're getting THAT... Loki had no reason to expect him to even be alive. (*edit - unless you meant King Loki? That may be the case) He went to rather extreme measures to reform himself, and when presented with the possibility that he would just end up going bad again, he was horrified by that. The last thing he wants right now is to be the villain again, and if anything, this issue underscored that. If Loki really wanted to destroy Asgard, he would have simply betrayed them for real and led the ships to Asgardia. He had a means to destroy Asgard handed to him on a silver platter, and refused to take it. Beyond that, he destroyed that opportunity in a rather brutal fashion, giving the Angels good reason to never, ever trust him again. Though Loki does have good reason to be angry with Asgard at the moment, his beef is mostly with the All-Mother, so if he wanted anyone back from that little prison, it was probably Odin, to get the All-Mother removed from power. I think they just wanted to get Odin back in the picture, I bet Cul will end up locked inside the 10th Realm with the angels.

[jackolover]

You make good points about Lokis incentives to remain good, but isn't this the old Loki now, not the Kid Loki we started with in the Heroic Age? That old Loki is a little more complicated than the Kid, because the kid at least practiced mischief because he wanted to help, and always made it worse, (look at how he released Surtur in FI). This old Loki seems a little more manipulative than the kid, in that he is devious with it, like Loki has a long term plan lurking in the back of his mind, like he always does. If that includes Cul being set loose to run interference on Odin and a war breaks out between Odin and Cul again, with Surtur in the middle, maybe this is all Loki is thinking about. Who knows how this old Loki in the new body wants to behave? Does he want to be the good son of Odin, or, does he want to be according to his namesake, the God of Mischief, in which case, his chief role is to make sure mischief is involved in all the battles that come next. And the best way to cause mischief, is to set things in train that will cause battles.

I would have loved that Nick Fury whispered into Thors ear, that Thor was not the son of Odin, and that Loki was the true son, only he's really a daughter. Who is Thors father? That would be great.

[Evan]

Should this be more controversial? Heven? Angels? All women?

Christian super heroes just like asgardian gods are really just confused aliens?

[Expletive Deleted]

Should this be more controversial? Heven? Angels? All women?

Christian super heroes just like asgardian gods are really just confused aliens?

Marvel isn't saying this is the heaven or that these are the angels. We've seen those before (albeit usually with some degree of plausible deniability) in books like Ghost Rider. A sci-fi Asgardian play on the same imagery shouldn't be terribly bothersome, I'd think.

[jackolover]

Should this be more controversial? Heven? Angels? All women?

Christian super heroes just like asgardian gods are really just confused aliens?

These are nothing like the Christian concepts of Angels. These are mercinaries, who hold a grudge, and will go on vendetta raids, just like Vikings. These are not "Angels"

[ExodusCloak]

I am not so sure we WILL get to Angela 'embracing' her birth family. She has been raised in the Angelic culture for THOUSANDS of years, and as far as she knew she WAS an angel, just one without wings. You don't just give that up in a day or two, even if it is revealed your entire life is a lie. I think Loki realizes this, and it's why he was tempting her with the stars and adventure, rather than her Asgardian family, even though I am 99% sure he knows exactly who she is, even if Thor is too dense to grasp it right now. If he can get her to leave the angelic realm because adventure before Odin seals off the Angelic realm again, (maybe with Cul inside as well?) then she is at least in a place where they can check up on her, and she can maybe see that the Asgardians are not the evil people she has been told they are. That is likely the best they can reasonably hope for.

*edit - Oh, and while the fact that they had fleets of warships was a little strange to me as well, then I remembered that her Spawn continuity IS intact, they have said this in a few interviews, they just can't go into any detail about it in the comics for legal reasons. So they are not sealed in a little bubble, the angels do have access to the Image universe, at a minimum, which means their fleets are not necessarily useless. It was only 616 they were blocked from.

But at the same time the Angels have a point. Asgard did not pay it's debts and even Odin knew that Asgardians are warrior mad. I was kind of hoping the Angels would crush Asgard for their lack of compassion towards humanity particular Odins during Fear Itself while the Angels seem to love mankind.

[John Ossie]

Cool to see Odin coming back. And it was cool how Loki tricked the Angels and how Thor got free. Not a big fan of the art, didn't hate it just didn't love it. Definitely interested in the finale.

[jackolover]

But at the same time the Angels have a point. Asgard did not pay it's debts and even Odin knew that Asgardians are warrior mad. I was kind of hoping the Angels would crush Asgard for their lack of compassion towards humanity particular Odins during Fear Itself while the Angels seem to love mankind.

The Angels seem to be acting like heroes to the humans, much like Thor was acting to be the hero in 1100AD as well. Anybody, Angel or Asgardian, can conjure hero worship out of humans. I don't see the Angels as any more nobel than the Asgardians. Asgardians wanted to safeguard humans from Culs fear, and tried to redeem them. The Angels could turn that around and say Odin slaughtered humans so doesn't love them. The Angels live for the payoff. The Asgardians don't. I can see the Angels and Cul becoming close allies, because they are built of the same stuff. Greed.

[Raye]

But at the same time the Angels have a point. Asgard did not pay it's debts and even Odin knew that Asgardians are warrior mad. I was kind of hoping the Angels would crush Asgard for their lack of compassion towards humanity particular Odins during Fear Itself while the Angels seem to love mankind.

Irrelevant to the original point. It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong, all that matters is that she was raised in Angelic culture. That is what she knows and understands, and it unlikely to give it up just because a couple guys from Asgard come in and say they are her brothers.

You make good points about Lokis incentives to remain good, but isn't this the old Loki now, not the Kid Loki we started with in the Heroic Age? That old Loki is a little more complicated than the Kid, because the kid at least practiced mischief because he wanted to help, and always made it worse, (look at how he released Surtur in FI). This old Loki seems a little more manipulative than the kid, in that he is devious with it, like Loki has a long term plan lurking in the back of his mind, like he always does. If that includes Cul being set loose to run interference on Odin and a war breaks out between Odin and Cul again, with Surtur in the middle, maybe this is all Loki is thinking about. Who knows how this old Loki in the new body wants to behave? Does he want to be the good son of Odin, or, does he want to be according to his namesake, the God of Mischief, in which case, his chief role is to make sure mischief is involved in all the battles that come next. And the best way to cause mischief, is to set things in train that will cause battles.

I would have loved that Nick Fury whispered into Thors ear, that Thor was not the son of Odin, and that Loki was the true son, only he's really a daughter. Who is Thors father? That would be great.

No, not quite. Current Loki is neither Kid Loki nor old villain Loki, he is an amalgam of both. While it is true that a copy of the old Loki killed and replaced Kid Loki, he was still present for everything Kid Loki did, and it's pretty clear that some of Kid Loki did rub off on him. He is consumed with guilt, (including over Leah, which is something Kid Loki did BEFORE he got taken over. So much guilt that it manifested physically) and acts very differently from his villain days in a number of really large ways. Old Loki had a disdain for all things mortal, this Loki lives in an apartment in NYC, carries a smart phone, plays video games, makes all sorts of pop culture references, absolutely freaking loves certain mortal foods, especially bacon, and is currently striking up what appears to be a genuine friendship with a mortal woman (I am sure the usefullness of her powers does play a part, and he may end up betraying Verity, but that would be VERY difficult for him to do, given that she can spot any lie instantly. But I think he really does like her.). Is any of that something you would expect old school Loki to do? Keep in mind that much of this happens when he is alone, so it's not like he is putting on a show to try and convince people he's different when he is really still all evil and such. He does still waffle towards the dark side sometimes, like in Young Avengers when was manipulating the team to gain magical power. But on the other hand, he did back down on that, and it seemed to be a moment of realization for him that he was changed now. And even if he didn't behave differently, the fact remains that it was the old Loki that made the decision to try and reform, and was willing to die to do it. If you read his solo book, it's made pretty clear that he does not want all he went through to change himself to be for nothing. I don't think he will ever be on the same level of heroism as his brother Thor, since he is still primarily motivated by his own self interests, not other people. He does have some of old Loki in him after all, and that mostly comes out in selfishness and some arrogance, as well as generally being more deceitful and apparently, as seen in this issue, more vicious to his enemies. But he is at the very least now not actively being evil. He is Chaotic Neutral, at worst.

Also, he would not need to release Cul to 'run interferrence' on Odin. Odin willingly did that all by himself, if Loki had just left the situation alone, Odin would have remained out of his hair for the foreseeable future.

I think Nick whispered to Thor what we were just discussing: the fate of Kid Loki. There has been a lot of foreshadowing regarding that "crime that will not be forgiven" recently, so it's going to come out soon, and Thor will NOT take it well. I think the unworthyness comes from basically murderous rage towards his brother, and he will not be worthy again until he forgives him at least a little bit. Not that Mjolnir prevents Thor from killing, but it's usually a more honorable sort of killing. Killing your own brother, even if he is adopted, and arguably evil, is a pretty big deal, and is something Thor actually has not done before. Even when Loki was in full on villain mode, Thor always held out hope that he could be redeemed.

[jackolover]

The impression I got was old Loki is putting on the skin of Kid Loki, and behaving like Kid Loki as much as possible. This could be just to throw off anybody that may recognise that Old Loki is in there now, and Old Loki likes being seen as the reformed one, because it is so much more enjoyable to deceive everyone into thinking he is good. Like bacon, get a girlfriend, take a turn for the better, help Asgard against the Angel raid. But also come to the place where there is no time, and make sure Cul is released. I see Loki biding his time for the moment when he can express himself again, maybe in a new way, but still, the same selfish Loki is lurking inside there somewhere, waiting for the time he can do what he really wants. By the time he's finished, Thor, Odin and the Allmothers will love Loki, but he doesn't want love. Like Cul, he is a Serpent underneath, and a Serpent does what a Serpent is. Loki is his uncles nephew. They can't help what they are. They just are, the gods of Fear, and Mischief.

As for what Fury whispered in Thors ear that made Thor drop his hammer, it was short lived. Thor still has his hammer after OS, so the permanent loss of Mjolnir comes later.

[Raye]

No. He does these things while no one is watching, it's in his internal monologue captions, which are basically his thoughts. If they wanted him to be deceptive (on that scale, anyway) they would have omitted the internal captions so you don't know what he's really thinking. they did this with Young Avengers, when you still weren't quite sure if he had really changed sides, but by the end he proved he had... though with a few bumps in the road. But now, in AoA, there are internal monologue captions, lots of them, not to mention the frequent appearance of the phantom Kid Loki (which only he can see) which is basically just his guilt being shown clear as day on the page. We can basically see inside his head, and it does not fit with hidden villainy. He may be (justifiably) angry at the All-Mother right now, but he's not plotting to destroy Asgard. As mentioned, if he was, he just passed up a golden opportunity for revenge, one which he could have easily hidden his involvement with if he wanted to, it's not like he HAD to gloat to Thor, if him being a secret villain was his plan. Have you even been reading his solo? The All Mother don't love him, or at least they have a funny way of showing it. (though I suspect it's mostly Freyja and the other two don't necessarily agree) They threw him under the bus, are working to destroy his chance to reform by locking him into a fixed fate of villainy, which he does not want. The whole story is (and has been since JIM) him trying to break free of a predetermined role which he felt trapped by. Which is why I think he may have been keen to get Odin back. Odin may just go along with the All-Mother, but there is a chance he may put a stop to what they are planning.

And if you are referring to Uncanny Avengers, I think that was just an art mistake. Interviews about Unworthy Thor mentioned that the hammer was on the moon, so... unless he goes back there to drop it there AGAIN...

*edit - went looking and found a page that illustrates my point:


The green captions are his internal thoughts. Does any of that look like him secretly being evil? He thinks to himself about how the old stories pull at him and he wants to escape, and says he is 'haunted' by the things he did.