If X-Men borrows from the Civil Rights Era, why did Claremont not create. . .

[Kingdom X]

Given the time he was doing most of his writing, I give him credit. Sure, it would have been nice to have a Black male X-Man or a prominent recurring character, BUT you also have to acknowledge the comics industry was pretty racist.

And consider this... CC took a team that was pretty much White (except for two members) and put a Black woman in charge of them and NOT just for an issue. That was utterly ground-breaking.

The New Mutants pushed that envelope even further.

There was only so much he was going to get away with.

This one. He was pushing the envelope in the industry and I’m honestly more skeptical of the writers that came after him that didn’t use that momentum and sometimes regressed the progress that was made.

[Leirus]

A bit of bad faith going around here. Claremont did not create the all new X-men. Those would be Len Wein and Cockrum. If you want to see what kind of x-men Claremont would have created, look at the New Mutants. Plus... and this is my personal take according to what I know about how the States used to work. X-men comics originally (back in the sixties) were marketed to white kids. To teach them that different did not mean worse. Representation came later. But to answer what I detect at the bottom of your question: Yes, X-men comics today must absolutely be diverse. When they are not, they are a weird kind of cultural appropriation. That has little to do with Claremont.

[Devaishwarya]

Learn dem, Leirus. Learn dem rel gud.

I would also add that while he would have known about what was happening socially and politically around him at the time he didn't set out to "borrow" anything from the CRM. The MX/MLK and any such parallel notions were later ascribed to his work by critics who read his stories through their own particular lens.

Similar to how some critics look back on his works and point out so many "problems" as seen through our 2021 eyes with his depiction of the relationships and situations in which he wrote the characters.

[SecretWarrior]

A bit of bad faith going around here. Claremont did not create the all new X-men. Those would be Len Wein and Cockrum. If you want to see what kind of x-men Claremont would have created, look at the New Mutants. Plus... and this is my personal take according to what I know about how the States used to work. X-men comics originally (back in the sixties) were marketed to white kids. To teach them that different did not mean worse. Representation came later. But to answer what I detect at the bottom of your question: Yes, X-men comics today must absolutely be diverse. When they are not, they are a weird kind of cultural appropriation. That has little to do with Claremont.

He did have a lot of creative control, at a time when Black Marvel characters had been given their own titles, i.e., T'Challa, Luke Cage, and Bill Foster, or were prominently featured, i.e., Misty Knight, Sam Wilson, etc. He wasn't the only X-creator, but he was the most prolific. He did a lot for female characters in particular, and he did create native American and foreign males of color. He didn't have the same appropriation issue with Jewish characters as he did for Black characters. I was mostly just curious to see if this was ever brought up to him before or if he ever spoke on it.

Learn dem, Leirus. Learn dem rel gud.

I would also add that while he would have known about what was happening socially and politically around him at the time he didn't set out to "borrow" anything from the CRM. The MX/MLK and any such parallel notions were later ascribed to his work by critics who read his stories through their own particular lens.

Similar to how some critics look back on his works and point out so many "problems" as seen through our 2021 eyes with his depiction of the relationships and situations in which he wrote the characters.

If he didn't draw on the CRM, how do you explain the lynching imagery, n-word, and KKK grandmaster in his GLMK? How do you explain the debate about mutant integration vs isolation with the Morlocks or Brotherhood?

As for the 2021 thing, it's not like Marvel creators at the time didn't create Black characters--just look at Jack Kirby who had been around since the Golden Age of Comics. Jack created T'Challa, the Black Racer, Vykin, and others.

[MYCMTSC]

I don't know why people are being combative about you merely brining up this topic, I think this is a reasonable question to ask and a good thing to analyze.

Claremont and the other prominent X-Writers used the American Civil Rights movement, gay rights, and Jewish persecution to inspire the X-Men, but African American voices are far less literalized on the page (Comics Code prevented outright stated queerness, but Claremont and Nicieza both made great efforts in under the table representation).

[SecretWarrior]

I don't know why people are being combative about you merely brining up this topic, I think this is a reasonable question to ask and a good thing to analyze.

Claremont and the other prominent X-Writers used the American Civil Rights movement, gay rights, and Jewish persecution to inspire the X-Men, but African American voices are far less literalized on the page (Comics Code prevented outright stated queerness, but Claremont and Nicieza both made great efforts in under the table representation).

I think people assume I'm trying to "cancel" him or smear him, but I'm not. His contributions to representation are well-recognized, but like every other artist, his work will always be subject to opinion and critique. He had contemporaries like Jack Kirby who didn't have this oversight. And it's not like Marvel didn't have any Black characters outside of the X-Books at the time.

What's weird to me though is that he retconned Bishop, the only Black Male, from African descent to Aboriginal descent. Aborigines deserve representation as much as anyone else, but when you have a track record with characters of African descent, it's fair to say that's odd.

Glad the Comics Code is gone and there's more overt queer representation, especially in the X-Books.

[From The Shadows]

More Black male heroes? Or male heroes who were American POC? Most of his POC were women, while the guys he created were White. Wondering if this has ever been touched on.

Of course, he did create males who were POC, like Neal Shaara, but they were usually foreign. It seems strange to me to borrow from the Civil Rights Movement and to drop the N-word in God Loves, Man Kills (my favorite X-Men story), but this seems like it's either cultural appropriation or bordering on it.

Because he is one of many white men who wrote these comics? I don't know why but back in the 80's, yes I know that ANAD started in 1975, there was a lot of depictions of black males in a not too flattering light. Reagan was the president, followed by Bush and they were both conservatives. So was Claremont. He did make Bish an Australian aborigine later on. When he was always black American. I don't know what that means if he just wanted to connect characters like he started doing as time went on or it had to do with some personal views. He was more "progressive" in comparison but that does not mean he is always right.

[CosmiComic]

The whole metaphor is a form of cultural appropriation.

It's true X-Men lacks prominent Black male heroes. I'm not exactly sure why considering it would appropriate for the whole fictional prejudice angle. Although it does better with other demographics. Not to side track the discussion,I always wondered why other groups like Avengers lacked in those demographics.

[Devaishwarya]

If he didn't draw on the CRM, how do you explain the lynching imagery, n-word, and KKK grandmaster in his GLMK? How do you explain the debate about mutant integration vs isolation with the Morlocks or Brotherhood?

As for the 2021 thing, it's not like Marvel creators at the time didn't create Black characters--just look at Jack Kirby who had been around since the Golden Age of Comics. Jack created T'Challa, the Black Racer, Vykin, and others.

Lynching, KKK, N-word...the Holocaust...existed long before Claremont started writing the X-Men. As a very learned and literary man he would definitely have known about the racist societal ills that pervaded America's (and Europe's, being half Jew himself) history long before the advent of comic books. And as all creators do...allowed that knowledge and understanding from his perspective to inform (and indirectly influence) his work on some deeper levels, because he felt he had something meaningful to say within the medium of his comic books and prose novels.

This does not mean he directly "borrowed" or "appropriated" anything. (I see some here still don't understand the implications of true appropriation and its results. Discrimination...the very foundation on which X-lore is built, is clearly not attributed solely to one specific race or culture as written throughout Humanity's history)

[SecretWarrior]

Lynching, KKK, N-word...the Holocaust...existed long before Claremont started writing the X-Men. As a very learned and literary man he would definitely have known about the racist societal ills that pervaded America's (and Europe's, being half Jew himself) history long before the advent of comic books. And as all creators do...allowed that knowledge and understanding from his perspective to inform (and indirectly influence) his work on some deeper levels, because he felt he had something meaningful to say within the medium of his comic books and prose novels.

This does not mean he directly "borrowed" or "appropriated" anything. (I see some here still don't understand the implications of true appropriation and its results. Discrimination...the very foundation on which X-lore is built, is clearly not attributed solely to one specific race or culture as written throughout Humanity's history)

This image is a direct reference to Southern lynchings:





That's appropriation of an experience for a creative work. It cannot be divorced from its original context.

That would be like saying the use of gas chambers to commit genocide against mutants isn't a reference to the Holocaust because lots of other people have been gassed to death, like death row inmates.

If CC decided to reference a lynching, he was aware of lynchings and what their emotional impact and context were.

[Devaishwarya]

Yes, absolutely...so that it informs the work he's creating and as such makes it that more impactful to the readers. That isn't appropriation"of an experience" (whatever that means...because apparently only Black people in America have experienced what it is to be hung) Again...that word is being grossly miscontextualised in this instance.

As a creative...artist, designer, musician, dancer, author...we are influenced by Humanity and Human nature around us and throughout History in all its complex and frightening glory....either from personal experience, the experiences of others, recorded experience in literature and film and music. And you cannot tell a Creative that, for whatever ridiculous reason, they cannot speak on or create works influenced by what they know and have learned...especially if they feel strongly about a particular issue/s. That is utter idiocy.

[SecretWarrior]

Yes, absolutely...so that it informs the work he's creating and as such makes it that more impactful to the readers. That isn't appropriation"of an experience" (whatever that means...because apparently only Black people in America have experienced what it is to be hung) Again...that word is being grossly miscontextualised in this instance.

As a creative...artist, designer, musician, dancer, author...we are influenced by Humanity and Human nature around us and throughout History in all its complex and frightening glory....either from personal experience, the experiences of others, recorded experience in literature and film and music. And you cannot tell a Creative that, for whatever ridiculous reason, they cannot speak on or create works influenced by what they know and have learned...especially if they feel strongly about a particular issue/s. That is utter idiocy.

He literally has two black children lynched with a racial slur hung around their bodies. They're also lynched because of their DNA. He used racial imagery and changed the context for his story, and that's appropriation. Not all appropriation is bad. The fact that you seem to ignore the history of AA is a little disturbing though. Next you'll be telling me that Superman stories have never used Jesus imagery because lots of other people have been crucified.

[BroHomo]

So Chris Claremont didn't use allegories to the CRM when he dropped the N-word in God Loves, Man Kills?

What was allegorical about this?

On this point, the rebuttal would be that he didn't borrow as much from those classifications as he did from the CRM, so it's an appropriation without credit issue, like taking the songs of black artists and giving them to white performers.

How? He's not shy about letting people know where he got the inspiration for many of his stories from

While I agree that GLMK seems to take inspiration of the US Civil Rights movement, Claremont work around that time seemed heavily inspired by the story of Jewish people. He is Jewish himself and there are tons of allegories and references to the struggle of the Jewish people. But I think it’s not (and it can’t be) a 1 to 1 comparison cause Claremont’s work abt the X-Men were not only hinting about racism but also about different types of discrimination. And some of those stories are not even about that, but about personal individual trauma and struggle, or well just about fun and bizarre stuff.

I think Synch is the most recognizable and famous one. Im glad he is having a good spotlight now.

Errr not sure how that would be the case
He was the first one and the only one for a loooong while

Didn't he create Forge and Sunspot (who I know isn't American, but is black and dealt with racism)?

Yup

This one. He was pushing the envelope in the industry and I’m honestly more skeptical of the writers that came after him that didn’t use that momentum and sometimes regressed the progress that was made.

THIS!!

I think people assume I'm trying to "cancel" him or smear him, but I'm not. His contributions to representation are well-recognized, but like every other artist, his work will always be subject to opinion and critique. He had contemporaries like Jack Kirby who didn't have this oversight. And it's not like Marvel didn't have any Black characters outside of the X-Books at the time.

Kirby created an AA Hero?

What's weird to me though is that he retconned Bishop, the only Black Male, from African descent to Aboriginal descent. Aborigines deserve representation as much as anyone else, but when you have a track record with characters of African descent, it's fair to say that's odd.

Annnd I'm this kinda well meaning tone deafness is probably why CC was shy about creating an AA character Being a white middle aged Brit. The amount of scrutiny coming his way coulda been intense. Looking back at some of the black 80s dudes. He mightve made the right choice

[SecretWarrior]

What was allegorical about this?

How? He's not shy about letting people know where he got the inspiration for many of his stories from

Errr not sure how that would be the case
He was the first one and the only one for a loooong while


Yup

THIS!!

Kirby created an AA Hero?

Annnd I'm this kinda well meaning tone deafness is probably why CC was shy about creating an AA character Being a white middle aged Brit. The amount of scrutiny coming his way coulda been intense. Looking back at some of the black 80s dudes. He mightve made the right choice

The allegory is discussed in other comments.

Jack Kirby created and co-created lots of Black characters, like Black Panther, Shiloh Norman, Vykin, etc. Neal Adams created John Stewart back in the 1970s. Luke Cage, Bill Foster, Sam Wilson, Misty Knight, and others were around outside of the X-Books. These creators didn't just say, "Well, we've got allegories, so we're good."

Claremont had no problem writing characters of foreign backgrounds or of different religions, so why was there an oversight with this specific group of people whose history he borrowed from? Why did he retcon the ethnic background of the first prominent black male to appear prominently in the X-Books?

Again, any PoC males he created outside of Native Americans were foreigners. None were Black. His female characters were much more diverse than his male ones.

I don't know what was in his head or heart or what role editorial played, but it's weird, especially when compared to his contemporaries.

He deserves credit for what he did, but that doesn't absolve him from criticism. And if anyone in the creative pipeline had weird racial views, it means that at least some of the people working on the books were only virtue signaling and not actually living up to the messages they were preaching through their work.

[BroHomo]

The allegory is discussed in other comments.

Jack Kirby created and co-created lots of Black characters, like Black Panther, Shiloh Norman, Vykin, etc. Neal Adams created John Stewart back in the 1970s. Luke Cage, Bill Foster, Sam Wilson, Misty Knight, and others were around outside of the X-Books. These creators didn't just say, "Well, we've got allegories, so we're good."

Claremont had no problem writing characters of foreign backgrounds or of different religions, so why was there an oversight with this specific group of people whose history he borrowed from? Why did he retcon the ethnic background of the first prominent black male to appear prominently in the X-Books?

Again, any PoC males he created outside of Native Americans were foreigners. None were Black. His female characters were much more diverse than his male ones.

I don't know what was in his head or heart or what role editorial played, but it's weird, especially when compared to his contemporaries.

He deserves credit for what he did, but that doesn't absolve him from criticism. And if anyone in the creative pipeline had weird racial views, it means that at least some of the people working on the books were only virtue signaling and not actually living up to the messages they were preaching through their work.

I guess I'm missing what Kitty saying N***** is supposed to represent

Yeah and Claremont had Sunspot and Stevie Hunter in New Mutants. Early Luke Cage was cringe so im not a mutant version would be a positive thing.

Prob the same reason there's been so few AA X-Men created after Claremont left. AA characters written by non black but especially white writers are under a microscope to detect any signs of inauthenticity, buffoonery, etc. Soooo folks shy away from it look at tv in the 80s..when a black dude is introduced they were the jive talking, street smart, pop-locking orphan with a heart of gold. Sunspot was before Bishop and he didn't change anything he just said gateway is his ancestor

Sunspot... black
Dude who trained Blade... black

Yeah I'm not saying it's not sh!tty but I try not to go in on the writer who gave us Sunspot lol