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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    You’re talking about depriving people the enjoyment of these characters.
    You mean like how DC told Wally West, Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, John Stewart, Ryan Choi, Jason Rusch, Manhunter, JSA, Simon Baz, Power Girl, Tim Drake's entire generation, Cyborg and so many other fans to BLEEP off?

    Most of these folks actual SOLD books.
    Was it not Jaime Reyes's run that was longest Blue Beetle run? Where is he at?
    Was it NOT Cassandra Cain that proved that Batgirl could sell? Let alone an Asian female lead title? The longest solo run before Kamala bypassed her?
    So why should these folks be denied? Because many were for many years and some never came back.

    And replacing them with legacy replacement characters. How well has that gone lately?
    Scott Lang is the one with 3 movies while we still wait on bigger names to have a movie or a DECENT one (looking at YOU JLA & Green Lantern).


    This isn't a criticism of legacy characters as a concept but the overuse of the concept in current comics.
    Well if you were in the editorial office of DC-you would have a HARD time proving it overused when the results say KEEP doing it.
    In terms of POC that is....

    DC-Your most successful POC are legacies. Solo, Mini or team up

    Kyle with 100+ run
    Cassandra Cain 72
    Steel with 54 (despite not calling himself Superman)
    Jason Rusch 50-60
    Jessica & Simon 50
    Jaime Reyes 50+
    Go below 40 and see Cyborg, Luke Fox and Black Lightning.

    Dc has 5 (if we don't count Steel) legacies over 50.

    Marvel
    Black Panther soon to be 200
    Shang Chi 170+
    Luke Cage 170
    Miles 70+
    Ms Marvel 75
    Moon Girl 47 (for now)
    X-23 under her OWN name 40 (35 as Wolverine)
    Sam Alexander is at 49
    War Machine about 60-70 (not as Iron Man)
    Falcon 32 (as Falcon) 30 as CA (52)
    Excluding Miles & Sam (Kamala was using a dormant name at the time)-POC had have success under their own names.

    Even if you toss in She Hulk, Carol Danvers, Jane Foster and Ben Riley-DC still buries Marvel.
    Nightwing (that was a Superman villain first), Superboy, Tim Drake and Wally West alone buries Marvel in the legacies department.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Amazon Kindle give you an idea.

    However with digital the numbers flex due to what comes out.

    The KEY thing to understand is with digital and trades is they are OPEN to everybody. There is no comic book store guy to say "I don't like Miles and I would rather go out of business than sell his book." Yes we got guys like that and their rage is not limited to POC-Archie, Supergirl and others have been victims of it.
    You do realize that there are bigger factors than comic book store owners having a bias, which the ones that do have would be put behind them to survive because they aren't doing hot rn.If you think they'd rather go out of business you are dead wrong.

    Availability for one, transport for another, etc.

    Again not saying it doesn't happen but you make statements taking just one aspect and think that makes a point.So many Peter secondary tittles don't do so well in physical and many Batman titles don't do well in physical yet are continued.I'd say they benefit from digital just as much.Digital has far more advantages than to overcome store owner bias.Most stores have Miles books(even sales show it does decently) and I'll bet you the Kamala Khan mini will be there as well when it drops w/ the MCU.

    And even comparing the number of floppies we get Spider-man and Batman get more in number and get more discussion and I'd bet much higher sales for them than the characters you listed.


    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Well if you were in the editorial office of DC-you would have a HARD time proving it overused when the results say KEEP doing it.
    In terms of POC that is....

    DC-Your most successful POC are legacies. Solo, Mini or team up
    Read my recent post on the recent page, I said DC knows how to do legacies and you just proved my point.

    Also I meant Legacies in general, it's just that so many of them are POC's in comparison because everything was anti-diversity, etc.More representation is good, why would I argue against that.My point is they use legacies as a crutch since they can't do good representation on their own.

    And I agree that until Marvel figures out how to do this legacy thing then they should focus on OC's.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 11-29-2021 at 05:49 PM.

  3. #258
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    The third video in this "series" by Perch -

    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Because the positive ones do not feature buzz word or buzz magnet material.

    A review of say Black Panther by a positive site-does NOT veer into throwing fits about why are there black folks in the book or writers. It tries to give you good and bad on the actual content.

    The positive ones do not STOP at saying well Mosaic failed and that proves no one wants to read about black folks. They are going to try to give you more like some stores NOT selling the book for legit or racist reasons. A book that might do better as a trade as many of these books have shown to do.

    The positive ones can suggest book BEYOND Marvel and DC.

    The positive ones tend to be folks who actually have real JOBS-so they can't surf social media to look for rage.

    Negative ones-they see POC and that is all they need for rage clicks. Be it in the books, creators or folks in charge. As much crying about DC not having a direction (or DC not pandering to a certain demographic)-DC had a choice with that 5G that they claimed Dan never started.

    Folks forget DC still has some company sale issues that have to be done. So why try to start anything new when you don't know who will be in charge finally? Along with still having to pay all those folks for those 5G projects. They are trending water until things settle...
    Sad but true. Social Media is in many ways an outrage factory if not an outright hate propagation machine.

    Thanks for the excellent reply.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  5. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Inhumans wasn't part of the MCU.And Eternals was not only took risks w/ both story and cast in both diversity and size they had to jam pack a massive story. Not to mention it's still pandemic era and many people won't watch it.
    Sure but the point is that these are Marvel properties and they aren't doing great.

    Also Ant-man and the Wasp is considered one of the worst Marvel movies. Captain Marvel isn't considered as top tier either, more like mediocre.
    I don't disagree, but they were successful enuff that they are getting sequels. The point here was that these replacement characters can find a following among the general audience.

    I'm aware, but if you don't have any sources then you can't just say they did great/hit digitally.

    For e.x. Cap Marvel is kinda their prime Female lead hero atm, cancelling her solo gives a bad look so even if they aren't making much of a profit from her they can balance it out w/ other books.

    I'm not saying it's not a possibility, but using this for specific books doesn't work. Also high sellers like Amazing Spider-man, etc. also sell in digital and trades so I don't see why this is a positive only for under-performing books
    Fair enuff. I just don't have energy to dig up old interviews with Breevort and DC editors where they talk about how this has been their business model for years now ( especially DC). I'm not saying they only do this for their lower selling books, but that those books can get finally turn a profit in secondary markets. A lot of indies work this way too. It's kinda like when a movie gets good reviews but under performs at the box office, but becomes a hit after it's released on DVD.
    Last edited by ed2962; 11-29-2021 at 10:21 PM.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Inhumans wasn't part of the MCU.
    Yes, it was.


    And Eternals was not only took risks w/ both story and cast in both diversity and size they had to jam pack a massive story.Not to mention it's still pandemic era and many people won't watch it.
    In other words, it failed to succeed on its own merits despite having the backing of the MCU.


    Also Ant-man and the Wasp is considered one of the worst Marvel movies.
    Since when?

    Captain Marvel isn't considered as top tier either, more like mediocre.
    Most would disagree.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    It’s a safe bet when you compare character that debuted the last twenty years versus the silver and bronze age.
    And?

    What Spiderfan001 said.
    What ed2962 said.


    You thinker he’d love seeing all of his characters retired?
    Lee supported whatever he thought made Marvel rich and famous. If you have some quote of him disparaging legacy characters, I'd sure love to see it.

    I’m not saying stories should be retold.
    That's exactly what you'll end up having to do if you insist on keeping characters frozen in amber like you are suggesting. You don't want them to be aged up, have kids, retire or have any kind of substantial change because you think this will deprive future generations of their stories. Never mind future generations can just read those stories for themselves.

    Partially, yes. But as I said earlier, there is a strong half-life on great characters’ popularity and if you’re arguing that the writers are unable to keep iconic characters popular can make new characters popular, then I don’t know what to tell you there.

    In comics, we had a whole lot of years in which this question was simply ignored. The early Marvel books played around with something akin to ‘real time’, but once Stan and the Gang realized they were going to be around for a while, steps were taken to put the brakes on. Steps which later, less wise writers all too often ignored. -John Byrne
    John Byrne hasn't written anything worth caring about since his Superman run ended. Let's also not forget that his Spider-Man run was hated in large part because of him trying wind back the clock on the character's development.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 11-29-2021 at 10:16 PM.

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Their comics might have mediocre sales but many of them do better in either other markets or other media. Carol, mediocre direct market sales, but hit movie and hit in digital...Kamala, hit in digital and will have a movie coming soon...Jane/Thor did well for a while, will be the basis for the next Thor movie...Scott, poor comic sales but hit movie. Sam/Nova and Ririr didn't do great in comics sales, but he'll see what the future holds for them.
    Hell, there are plenty of so called originals arguably doing worse than Kamala. Wonder Woman hasn't had a tv series since the Lynda Carter show ended and we are only now getting a second Green Lantern tv series which stars neither Hal Jordan nor John Stewart, the two most famous Green Lanterns.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Marvel
    Black Panther soon to be 200
    Shang Chi 170+
    Luke Cage 170
    Miles 70+
    Ms Marvel 75
    Moon Girl 47 (for now)
    X-23 under her OWN name 40 (35 as Wolverine)
    Sam Alexander is at 49
    War Machine about 60-70 (not as Iron Man)
    Falcon 32 (as Falcon) 30 as CA (52)
    Excluding Miles & Sam (Kamala was using a dormant name at the time)-POC had have success under their own names.

    Even if you toss in She Hulk, Carol Danvers, Jane Foster and Ben Riley-DC still buries Marvel.
    Nightwing (that was a Superman villain first), Superboy, Tim Drake and Wally West alone buries Marvel in the legacies department.
    Iím surprised with Miles Morales being in his 70+ issues when itís his 10th year anniversary.
    "What you call Destiny is just an equation, a product of variables" - Uatu

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Sure but the point is that these are Marvel properties and they aren't doing great.
    Again, not MCU.Marvel properties is a much wider bracket, Anything MCU will likely never "fail".

    I don't disagree, but they were successful enuff that they are getting sequels. The point here was that these replacement characters can find a following among the general audience.
    Again, because they are MCU.And I never said they can't/won't find a following.And Scott was the protagnist of Ant-man in the MCU, they never showed us Hank's journey w/ films so it's not really a legacy title.

    Sam Wilson's Cap 4 would be a proper legacy MCU film

    Fair enuff. I just don't have energy to dig up old interviews with Breevort and DC editors where they talk about how this has been their business model for years now ( especially DC). I'm not saying they only do this for their lower selling books, but that those books can get finally turn a profit in secondary markets. A lot of indies work this way too. It's kinda like when a movie gets good reviews but under performs at the box office, but becomes a hit after it's released on DVD.
    I agree, but it's a blanket statement that can't be applied to individual titles.Also I'm just saying that movies also do great in both box office and then DVD.So it's not like the titles/characters you mention are the only ones that do great in other forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Yes, it was.
    It's not part of the "MCU" in any way that matters e.x. publicity, budgets, standards, fan-following, etc.

    In other words, it failed to succeed on its own merits despite having the backing of the MCU.
    Where did it fail?Unless you are going by rotten tomatoes?

    Since when?
    Since it came out.

    Most would disagree.
    They wouldn't, if you want to go by rotten tomatoes/metacritic(which I assume is what you are going for w/ eternals) then Captain Marvel is in the bottom 10.So even worse than mediocre
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 11-30-2021 at 02:40 AM.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post

    Again, because they are MCU.And I never said they can't/won't find a following.And Scott was the protagnist of Ant-man in the MCU, they never showed us Hank's journey w/ films so it's not really a legacy title.
    Sam Wilson's Cap 4 would be a proper legacy MCU film
    But the original point I was responding to was that legacy characters weren't working so great. The fact is that some aren't, but others are doing just fine.


    I agree, but it's a blanket statement that can't be applied to individual titles. Also I'm just saying that movies also do great in both box office and then DVD.So it's not like the titles/characters you mention are the only ones that do great in other forms.
    Of course it can be applied to individual titles...it not an either or proposition.


    It's not part of the "MCU" in any way that matters e.x. publicity, budgets, standards, fan-following, etc.
    No true Scottsman....
    Last edited by ed2962; 11-30-2021 at 06:31 AM.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    But the original point I was responding to was that legacy characters weren't working so great. The fact is that some aren't, but others are doing just fine.
    And I pointed out that the ones you are talking about like Carol, Wally and Scott were created a long time ago and not part of the Legacy Boom we're seeing now which is what I'm criticizing.I even stated this exact thing and bolded it in a previous post.

    I'll say it again, I'm not criticizing legacy characters as a concept but their recent overuse as a crutch in comics specially at Marvel.

    Of course it can be applied to individual titles...it not an either or proposition.
    It can't for such a discussion, by your logic any title that hasn't sold well physically must be doing great numbers digitally.I pointed out why Carol for one has better reasons as to have an ongoing even if it's non-profit.They use comics that make a lot of profits to fund ones that are under-performing in hopes that it catches up, etc.

    Even comics like the Champions:- the legacy superhero team book got cancelled so it's not making enough digitally as well.

    Riri and Sam have no books, Neither does Kamala and Kate just got one because of MCU.


    No true Scottsman....
    ?
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 11-30-2021 at 06:59 AM.

  13. #268
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    It can't for such a discussion, by your logic any title that hasn't sold well physically must be doing great numbers digitally. I pointed out why Carol for one has better reasons as to have an ongoing even if it's non-profit. They use comics that make a lot of profits to fund ones that are under-performing in hopes that it catches up, etc.
    Even comics like the Champions:- the legacy superhero team book got cancelled so it's not making enough digitally as well.
    Ok. That's close to the point I was making. I'm not sure why you say it doesn't apply here.

    Riri and Sam have no books, Neither does Kamala and Kate just got one because of MCU.
    Correct. But I guarantee you Kamala will get another series in the next year or two. She's not an unsuccessful character for Marvel.


    ?
    I was trying to make a joke. You said Inhumans wasn't MCU. Agent Z said it was. You said not in a way that matters. This is an example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
    Last edited by ed2962; 11-30-2021 at 07:48 AM.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Ok. That's close to the point I was making. I'm not sure why you say it doesn't apply here.
    I'm saying you can't it applies to specific titles that you want it too.


    Correct. But I guarantee you Kamala will get another series in the next year or two. She's not an unsuccessful character for Marvel.
    Ofc, she's making her MCU debut.She getting a mini to go along w/ her D+ show as well.

    I was just saying she doesn't have a book rn

    I was trying to make a joke. You said Inhumans wasn't MCU. Agent Z said it was. You said not in a way that matters. This is an example of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
    Thanks, I wasn't aware.

    The point is Inhumans didn't benefit from what most Movies and D+ shows do from it.The budget, the reach and the massive fan/stanbase and hence it doesn't fall into the MCU in that regards.I wasn't talking in terms of canonity

  15. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post



    It's not part of the "MCU" in any way that matters e.x. publicity, budgets, standards, fan-following, etc.
    Let's not shift the goal posts please.



    Where did it fail?
    You tell me. You're the one who called it a failure.

    Since it came out.
    I don't know what circles you run in, but Ant-Man and Wasp is nowhere near considered to be the worst MCU movie. Are you sure you aren't confusing it with Age of Ultron or Thor:The Dark World?

    They wouldn't, if you want to go by rotten tomatoes/metacritic(which I assume is what you are going for w/ eternals) then Captain Marvel is in the bottom 10.So even worse than mediocre
    Yeah, I'd do a bit of research on that. There is a reason there was an entire controversy surrounding Captain Marvel and rotten tomatoes.

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