Marvel can't seem to do right by black characters

[Username taken]

The racism claims are from CHERRY PICKING certain scenes..

Examples-
Miles in the last Bendis run said "he did NOT want to be known as the black Spider-Man" That is one of two time race has come up with Miles. The other time was someone in the FIRST Bendis run saying "see Spider-man is black!"

Cyborg-his last run in the issue that introduce Exxy-Cyborg scanned the cops chasing him. One cop had various charges against him for police brutality.

Static-has dealt with racism and race 3 times. One in the cartoon, one in his first run dealing with a black bomber blowing up Jewish churches and in Static in Africa-Static feeling COMFRTABLE around Africans. In the current run the RED flag is Static getting his powers at a BLM rally versus a gang fight. That irks a lot of folks. More on the side of why are you taking out "black" folks fighting in gang fight for BLM? FYI-that gang fight was not only black folks as MANY forget how diverse Milestone was.

Firestorm-Jason never really did it unless you want to count him as Firestorm telling off a cop who bullied him and Nick years ago.

War Machine's funeral in Sam Wilson-the scene with all the black heroes. FITS galore were throw about that despite it being explained why Tony was NOT there.

Shilo Norman's book-he made a comment about wearing a mask because he's a black man in America. Yes VERY CRINGE.

The majority of the books do NOT go all racism and race stories.

Those folks just don't like those books existing. However what do they expect Marvel or DC to do? Look at the list of books with black leads alone I posted. There are about 20 more I did NOT list.

Marvel is suppose to NOT do black lead (POC lead) books?

Exactly.

They just cherry pick a few scenes and story lines and project it over the entire series and over all minority led titles. It's bullshit.

Regarding black led titles, just like the anti-crt folks, they should just say they don't want black led titles and be done with it. Superhero comics, minority led or otherwise very rarely deal with racism. Sure, some minority led titles do touch on racism but considering that there is REAL racism in the US, it's not surprising that these titles touch on this stuff. However, all the projection that the titles are just about their "race" should be done away with. It's just basically people saying they don't want black led or minority led titles. Let's keep it 100, if you have a problem with a minority led title touching on issues that actual minorities encounter in real life, then those people need to "solve their biases or racism". Period.

That's not to say that all points the guy in the video made aren't true but a lot of this is very, very subjective. Coates Black Panther has been critically acclaimed despite being hated by us the fans it's been critically acclaimed and has received a lot of plaudits. Besides, who decides what is or isn't a good comic? Not a minority led title but I'm reading Eternals by Gillen and Ribic and I think it's brilliant but a lot of people don't like it and it isn't selling well apparently. I loved the last Inhumans books but people went down on them hard and they've been cancelled. The last Blackbolt title was one of the best titles on the stand and it didn't sell well and it was canned. What constitutes a good comic is entirely subjective and a lot of times people simply buy titles based on "name" i.e even when fans are complaining about Spider-man or X-men or Batman people continue to "hate" buy them because they are the most popular heroes. Go to any comic store and you'd see a lot of Batman and X-men issues lying around and yet they keep getting ordered massively by retailers.

As for your last point, yes, a lot of people don't want to see black led titles. Period. That's why folks attacked Mosaic and Moon Girl and are completely silent about how good the new Static and Icon books are.

[Spiderfan001]

That's not to say that all points the guy in the video made aren't true but a lot of this is very, very subjective. Coates Black Panther has been critically acclaimed despite being hated by us the fans it's been critically acclaimed and has received a lot of plaudits. Besides, who decides what is or isn't a good comic? Not a minority led title but I'm reading Eternals by Gillen and Ribic and I think it's brilliant but a lot of people don't like it and it isn't selling well apparently. I loved the last Inhumans books but people went down on them hard and they've been cancelled. The last Blackbolt title was one of the best titles on the stand and it didn't sell well and it was canned. What constitutes a good comic is entirely subjective and a lot of times people simply buy titles based on "name" i.e even when fans are complaining about Spider-man or X-men or Batman people continue to "hate" buy them because they are the most popular heroes. Go to any comic store and you'd see a lot of Batman and X-men issues lying around and yet they keep getting ordered massively by retailers.

As for your last point, yes, a lot of people don't want to see black led titles. Period. That's why folks attacked Mosaic and Moon Girl and are completely silent about how good the new Static and Icon books are.

"What constitutes a good comic is entirely subjective"

For one person, yes.Sales are a indicator but not the end all be all, stuff like reviews from fans and critics are another one.

"lot of times people simply buy titles based on "name" i.e even when fans are complaining about Spider-man or X-men or Batman people continue to "hate" buy them because they are the most popular heroes."

It's the same as supporting a loosing team in any sport, people do it because they have read and loves the title for years/decades and grow fond of the characters to the point of sticking w/ them through the good and bad.

"Go to any comic store and you'd see a lot of Batman and X-men issues lying around and yet they keep getting ordered massively by retailers."

It's because of variants and incentives.I've been someone who for the longest time brought physical Comic books and still tries too, and I can tell you Batman/Spider-man still sells the best by a mile in terms of actual issues sold to customers.

"A lot of people don't want to see black led titles. Period. That's why folks attacked Mosaic and Moon Girl and are completely silent about how good the new Static and Icon books are."

Sounds like an excuse made for low sales.I'm sure there are some people who don't, but POC led comics have and do sell well and white characters led comics sell horribly.A diverse lead doesn't make the comics better or worse.And even good comic books like Hellions sell low, which has a predominantly white cast and is universally loved by all readers.So even a good comic w/ or w/out a POC isn't assured to succeed.Hellions doesn't have any star power and thus not good sales.

Moon Girl was propped as "the smartest person in the MU" and w/ it's execution it's not difficult to see why people don't like her.

Mosaic wasn't hated, just never caught on.I liked him because of his interaction w/ Spider-man in his solo IIRC, so I checked him out more and found him decent.

I read a select few DC books so can't speak on Static and Icon, although I've heard a lot of people say it's good so there's that.

[phonogram12]

Exactly.

And all the talk about black characters solo series being about them being “black” is garbage. It’s false.

For all the criticisms of Coates BP, racism isn’t a prominent theme in the book. Same with Miles Morales. Most of Marvel’s minority titles are being written by minority creators for good or for bad.

I have no problem with criticizing Marvel regarding minority heroes but making up criticisms that originate from alt-right folks THAT DONT EVEN READ THE COMICS ain’t it.

All of this. Even if it's just once (which in most cases is the case), certain people just don't like to be confronted with the realities of racism. So even if it is just mentioned once, that's all the reason in the world for these same people to claim that's all that the book's about regardless of whatever other subject matter it covers.

[Username taken]

It is pathetic. Racism as a topic (not as a force) has always been a minor plot thread in Marvel & DC comics, like sexism or any other prejudice. People whining about some 'woke Twitter mob' make no sense to me. Especially if someone is blaming the poor way Marvel has handled its Black heroes on 'wokeism' or whatever. Not the obvious decades of societal anti-Black racism

Exactly.

There's a lot more bias against black and POC characters because of racism. Somehow, some people are now trying to twist the argument to blame "their own racism" on Marvel's "wokeism". It doesn't work like that.

I was here when Ms Marvel and Mosaic were launched and some people absolutely lost their minds. Same with guys really crying about Moon Girl over and over again on social media. It's nonsense.

There's constant and persistent push back against POC and minority led titles, does anyone here still remember this: https://www.themarysue.com/marvel-retailers-diversity/, there were actual retailers using homophobic and racist language and who knows how many retailers hold these sort of views? There's already an in-built opposition to minority characters within the industry that people haven't addressed...they're too busy crying about "wokeism". At the moment, I'm not sure how many black led titles Marvel publish but the only one that is selling well is Miles Morales but he's had a big movie, big video game and various appearances in cartoons...and he has Spider-man in his title. Black Panther should have sold better but that's the one book that I will concede is a bit boring.

I'd much rather people talk about the real racism (like the one I highlighted above) in the industry and fandom rather than intangibles and immeasurable stuff like "comic book quality" or weightless arguments like "wokeism".

[Username taken]

All of this. Even if it's just once (which in most cases is the case), certain people just don't like to be confronted with the realities of racism. So even if it is just mentioned once, that's all the reason in the world for these same people to claim that's all that the book's about regardless of whatever other subject matter it covers.

Definitely.

They don't mind their characters dealing with real issues like growing up, getting married, getting divorced but when it comes to real issue like "racism", people lose their minds.

[armlessphelan]

I wish that Tim Seeley series for Blade had been allowed to happen: it sounded super promising, but it was shut down because the writer had the wrong skin colour. Storm's ongoing received NO press or publicity from Marvel and she was at one time the most popular female character in all of comics (I believe there was a poll in the 90s that determined that). The way Marvel undid Sam as Captain America was lazy and borderline offensive. And then there's the whole New Warriors debacle that was so ill-received it was quietly canceled and nobody from the company acknowledges that it was ever a thing.

[skyvolt2000]

I wish that Tim Seeley series for Blade had been allowed to happen: it sounded super promising, but it was shut down because the writer had the wrong skin colour.

Here is my issue with that. That shows how FAKE some folks are. That says we don't know our creators.

If you love Milestone especially the 90s version. Excluding Dwayne McDuffie, Robert Washington, Ho Che Anderson and 2 other folks-the writers for Milestone were mainly white. Matt Wayne did more books than anyone. Static has had 4 black artists Deny Cowans, Khary Randolph, Jamal Igel & NIKOLAS DRAPER-IVEY. Kyle Baker would have been 5th.

And then there's the whole New Warriors debacle that was so ill-received it was quietly canceled and nobody from the company acknowledges that it was ever a thing.

Especially considering the writer had ZERO issues with writing Black Panther in Black Panther versus Deadpool. Even if that book was offensive-I rather it be made so we can have a conversation about what made it offensive. So improvements can be made.
Because not doing it gives AMMO to those who can scream don't make this because it offends me-something the grifters have been doing since day one.

I was here when Ms Marvel and Mosaic were launched and some people absolutely lost their minds.

And when Marvel did something with Barnes & Noble with Mosaic-you thought Marvel committed TREASON.

There's constant and persistent push back against POC and minority led titles, does anyone here still remember this: https://www.themarysue.com/marvel-retailers-diversity/, there were actual retailers using homophobic and racist language and who knows how many retailers hold these sort of views?

Here is what is funny. Stores CONTROL what they order. So if those books don't sell-you don't have to order them.

I remember one store who tried to attack Marvel by pointing out 1 issue of Cyborg outsold Luke Cage (maybe the Powerman & IF run) and 2 other Marvel books. He even posted the numbers. He forgot to edit out that out of the 300 Cyborg books he ordered (Rebirth-issue 7) only 50 sold. Luke and the others had 20 unsold combined.

Lets not forget Image's Motorcrush by Burnside Batgirl team-because it was about a gay black woman-nobody wanted to order it (yet they ordered Black Panther WOW).
Issue 1-sold out. The trade was a top seller on Amazon and for the month it came out beating every DC title including Titans.

At the moment, I'm not sure how many black led titles Marvel publish but the only one that is selling well is Miles Morales but he's had a big movie, big video game and various appearances in cartoons...and he has Spider-man in his title.

It's Miles until Panther comes out later this month.

The funny thing about those black lead titles-they do better as trades. In digital-I have seen Shuri, Riri and others BEAT Batman on Amazon Kindle. So the audience is there but I think the format needs to change.

[CosmiComic]

Exactly.

There's a lot more bias against black and POC characters because of racism. Somehow, some people are now trying to twist the argument to blame "their own racism" on Marvel's "wokeism". It doesn't work like that.

I was here when Ms Marvel and Mosaic were launched and some people absolutely lost their minds. Same with guys really crying about Moon Girl over and over again on social media. It's nonsense.

There's constant and persistent push back against POC and minority led titles, does anyone here still remember this: https://www.themarysue.com/marvel-retailers-diversity/, there were actual retailers using homophobic and racist language and who knows how many retailers hold these sort of views? There's already an in-built opposition to minority characters within the industry that people haven't addressed...they're too busy crying about "wokeism". At the moment, I'm not sure how many black led titles Marvel publish but the only one that is selling well is Miles Morales but he's had a big movie, big video game and various appearances in cartoons...and he has Spider-man in his title. Black Panther should have sold better but that's the one book that I will concede is a bit boring.

I'd much rather people talk about the real racism (like the one I highlighted above) in the industry and fandom rather than intangibles and immeasurable stuff like "comic book quality" or weightless arguments like "wokeism".

I can't really wrap my head around blaming 'wokeism' for the backlash. Isn't us talking about the lack of support for Black heroes in Marvel 'woke' in of itself? Why not point the finger at the actual racism present in the industry and in society in general, instead of whining about Twitter? Like you and others have said, comics rarely talk about racism or any other prejudice. Why blame something barely in the comics for being 'political'?

People seem to lose their minds every time a non-White, female, or any other minority hero gets a push. Especially when they're patterned after a previous, usually majority (White and/or male) hero, because it's 'stealing from them' or whatever. But look at how little success 'original' Black heroes, just for example, actually get.

Miles himself is popular partially because Marvel made effort to promote him. Same with Kamala. If other female and/or minority heroes got that amount of support, they might be successful too

[Username taken]

I can't really wrap my head around blaming 'wokeism' for the backlash. Isn't us talking about the lack of support for Black heroes in Marvel 'woke' in of itself? Why not point the finger at the actual racism present in the industry and in society in general, instead of whining about Twitter? Like you and others have said, comics rarely talk about racism or any other prejudice. Why blame something barely in the comics for being 'political'?

People seem to lose their minds every time a non-White, female, or any other minority hero gets a push. Especially when they're patterned after a previous, usually majority (White and/or male) hero, because it's 'stealing from them' or whatever. But look at how little success 'original' Black heroes, just for example, actually get.

Miles himself is popular partially because Marvel made effort to promote him. Same with Kamala. If other female and/or minority heroes got that amount of support, they might be successful too

Agreed 100%.

[king81992]

I don't get some of these complaints, though. I don't get how woke politics or 'stealing from White heroes' is responsible for decades of racism.

I know nothing about this guy or his politics, but the use of the terms 'stealing from white heroes' and 'woke politics' make me wonder where he's coming from. In my experience, the only people who use those phrases are right wing shills making bad faith arguments.

[king81992]

Last point on this, I really do feel that Marvel should more with their minority characters, I have no problem saying that. And no, i don’t agree that Marvel have so many black characters that they aren’t featuring prominently. Yes, Marvel have a good number of black characters but a good chunk of them are supporting characters and when they are eventually upgraded folks still complain.

Theres a whole lot of racism and bigotry that’s entered the fandom and they’re really fighting against minority characters. We even have some POC echoing this nonsense which I find baffling. A lot of people don’t really want to see black characters have their own titles..period. Or even see them perform well.

Even when there’s no race bending or anything, there’s a virulent level of racism that’s really unsettling ever since comicsgate became a thing. I was around when folks tore into Mosaic and Marvel as a whole when the book was launched, it was troubling to watch.

That’s the last thing I’ll say on this though, a lot of people are racist and don’t want black led titles. Even when they are new characters, the same YouTube crowd that are addicted to Brie Larson will start crying about them again.

I feel like Marvel has done a better job with minority and legacy heroes than DC in the last few years, but there is room for a lot of improvement.

[ed2962]

I wish that Tim Seeley series for Blade had been allowed to happen: it sounded super promising, but it was shut down because the writer had the wrong skin colour. Storm's ongoing received NO press or publicity from Marvel and she was at one time the most popular female character in all of comics (I believe there was a poll in the 90s that determined that). The way Marvel undid Sam as Captain America was lazy and borderline offensive. And then there's the whole New Warriors debacle that was so ill-received it was quietly canceled and nobody from the company acknowledges that it was ever a thing.

For what it's worth, Tom wasn't fired or anything, he voluntarily stepped down. But the fact that Marvel didn't simply get a replacement writer either white or black shows you how little faith they had in the project to begin with.

[Username taken]

I feel like Marvel has done a better job with minority and legacy heroes than DC in the last few years, but there is room for a lot of improvement.

I agree.

But with Milestone coming back and from what I've read so far (with the exception of Hardware which is just basically a scene for scene retelling of the original 1990s series), DC is very well placed to catch up.

Although the caveat there is that DC doesn't own the Milestone characters.

[Spiderfan001]

I wish that Tim Seeley series for Blade had been allowed to happen: it sounded super promising, but it was shut down because the writer had the wrong skin colour. Storm's ongoing received NO press or publicity from Marvel and she was at one time the most popular female character in all of comics (I believe there was a poll in the 90s that determined that). The way Marvel undid Sam as Captain America was lazy and borderline offensive. And then there's the whole New Warriors debacle that was so ill-received it was quietly canceled and nobody from the company acknowledges that it was ever a thing.

I've been meaning to ask but when and how did they undo Sam as Cap?

[inisideguy]

For what it's worth, Tom wasn't fired or anything, he voluntarily stepped down. But the fact that Marvel didn't simply get a replacement writer either white or black shows you how little faith they had in the project to begin with.

I don't really understand how marvel can't make Blade a premier character. To me he has huge potential. Its very strange.