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  1. #76
    Incredible Member Kees_L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    I was referring to the Big 2, not the individual creators.

    Their goal is to make money, right?

    How do they that without enlarging their comics-buying base or expanding the potential demographics that would read comics and make various types of books sell instead of select few?
    I'm not sure I care enough about your *Big 2* in order to be to answer that.
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  2. #77
    Dirt Wizard Goggindowner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    So how do they expand both their market demographics and their readership base?
    If you look at the past 20 years of Big 2 publishing, you'll see that the simplest answer is that they don't and that they haven't. Not in decades. The industry is propped up by an ever shrinking group of die hard completists and habitual buyers. There hasn't been a new influx of readership since the early 90's, maybe the early 2000's to lesser degree.

    Instead, both Marvel and DC have looked to increase revenue shares through other channels. Movies, cartoons, licensing, video games, table top games, etc etc. Marvel probably made more money off of Guardians of the Galaxy in two weeks than they made off of their entire comics publishing library from the last ten years, and it probably had more eyes on it than anything in that time combined, too.

    Comics as a medium are growing, but not in monthly sales and not in superhero books. There is more distribution and better content being released right now than anytime I can remember in the twenty some odd years I've been reading comics, but none of that growth is happening in monthly sales. That is where the creator quoted by the OP is wrong in his thinking. He should be attacking different distribution models and different audiences than the ones who float the month to month sales charts. A no name creator with a non superhero book is NEVER going to flourish in that market. There are other, more lucrative ways to get his work out there, even if the revenue returns aren't nearly as immediate or stable.
    I co-host a podcast about comics. Mostly it's X-Men comics of the 90's.

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  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn Hopkins View Post
    Uh, no, most of them were. Sort of offbeat ones, but totally superheroes. If The Punisher and Ghost Rider are superheroes then most of these have to be considered so as well.
    Of the books I listed, most of those were mainly straight horror, sci-fi, detective/noir or military, many of them not involving any "superhero-ing." And characters like the Livewires definitely aren't superheros. One of those books was an Iron Giant riff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kees_L View Post
    I'm not sure I care enough about your *Big 2* in order to be to answer that.
    But... you commented on them earlier.

    You don't care about either Marvel or DC?

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    If you look at the past 20 years of Big 2 publishing, you'll see that the simplest answer is that they don't and that they haven't. Not in decades. The industry is propped up by an ever shrinking group of die hard completists and habitual buyers. There hasn't been a new influx of readership since the early 90's, maybe the early 2000's to lesser degree.

    Instead, both Marvel and DC have looked to increase revenue shares through other channels. Movies, cartoons, licensing, video games, table top games, etc etc. Marvel probably made more money off of Guardians of the Galaxy in two weeks than they made off of their entire comics publishing library from the last ten years, and it probably had more eyes on it than anything in that time combined, too.
    So when Marvel and DC keep talking about looking for "new readers," it's most likely BS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Comics as a medium are growing, but not in monthly sales and not in superhero books. There is more distribution and better content being released right now than anytime I can remember in the twenty some odd years I've been reading comics, but none of that growth is happening in monthly sales. That is where the creator quoted by the OP is wrong in his thinking. He should be attacking different distribution models and different audiences than the ones who float the month to month sales charts. A no name creator with a non superhero book is NEVER going to flourish in that market. There are other, more lucrative ways to get his work out there, even if the revenue returns aren't nearly as immediate or stable.
    So it's almost impossible for non-superhero indies to succeed in monthlies, outside of a few exceptions? How did Kirkman find success with Walking Dead prior to the TV show?

  5. #80
    Dirt Wizard Goggindowner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    So when Marvel and DC keep talking about looking for "new readers," it's most likely BS?
    It isn't that they aren't being sincere, it's that they have no idea how to actually achieve it. That, or the market that they believe is out there simply isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    So it's almost impossible for non-superhero indies to succeed in monthlies, outside of a few exceptions? How did Kirkman find success with Walking Dead prior to the TV show?
    Yes. The Walking Dead is one of those exceptions. Right place, right time, good quality. A perfect storm.
    I co-host a podcast about comics. Mostly it's X-Men comics of the 90's.

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  6. #81
    Incredible Member Kees_L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    But... you commented on them earlier.

    You don't care about either Marvel or DC?
    Didn't say that. I said: your Big 2.
    I flipped it on you, with reason. (wooha!) That's one.

    And two is, all that I would care about the Big 2 - for three - would be towards the creators and the art, primarily. So there.


    Who cares who makes what money, or how if they're not you. Caring for that won't get you it, surely.

    If you care about what you do, you stick with it long enough, you try hard or harder. But you also don't f**k it up, or else how much are you caring for it?
    That's the rub.
    Last edited by Kees_L; 08-30-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    It isn't that they aren't being sincere, it's that they have no idea how to actually achieve it. That, or the market that they believe is out there simply isn't.
    Or... they're not trying...

    Quote Originally Posted by Goggindowner View Post
    Yes. The Walking Dead is one of those exceptions. Right place, right time, good quality. A perfect storm.
    Alright, so monthlies aren't viable.

    What would work the best for these books and characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kees_L View Post
    Didn't say that. I said: your Big 2.
    I flipped it on you, with reason. (wooha!) That's one.

    And two is, all that I would care about the Big 2 - for three - would be towards the creators and the art, primarily. So there.


    Who cares who makes what money, or how if they're not you. Caring for that won't get you it, surely.

    If you care about what you do, you stick with it long enough, you try hard or harder. But you also don't f**k it up, or else how much are you caring for it?
    That's the rub.

    My point was about the minority characters and the genre books they publish. Not about the companies themselves.

    If the monthly readership remains the way it is now, those books and characters will continue to fail, hence the readers who do have an interest in specific properties will see less of them.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    Those weren't superhero titles.
    How many of them were Marvel titles?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    Of the books I listed, most of those were mainly straight horror, sci-fi, detective/noir or military, many of them not involving any "superhero-ing."
    I had nearly every Crossgen comic ever published. They were superhero comics.

    30 Days Of Night is a "straight horror" comic. RASL is a sci fi comic. Stumptown is a detective comic. Vietnam Journal is a war comic.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    So it's almost impossible for non-superhero indies to succeed in monthlies, outside of a few exceptions? How did Kirkman find success with Walking Dead prior to the TV show?
    The exception to the rule. How many indies sell floppies in those numbers? How many ever have? He probably has the single most successful creator owned comic in the direct market since Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

    His sales figures are pretty average for a good twenty percent of Marvel and DC superhero comics though.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    And characters like the Livewires definitely aren't superheros.
    Are you serious?

  12. #87
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    People whom like Law and Order SUV tune into watch that TV show on TV. They rarely read comics. People who pay for comics pay for comic stories, not storyboards for LAOSUV and other crime TV shows with female protags such as Cold Case.

    The (misperceived) lack of consumer support comes from the author basically trying to sell an apple [female protag tv animatic] as an orange [comicbook with a strong female lead character]. Thus no great amount of comicbook consumers give a shit, nor should they.

    No matter what you think of Axe Cop, it's a comic done with a comic sensibility so it scored with crowdfunding and later got heat for ancillary media. Because it refused to become a paltry-ass politically correct pseudo comic episode of TV presented in panel to panel format.

    And axe cop (which I personally can't stand to look at, but at least is a big indie success, so it applies here) is anything BUT a supe book by the Big 2.

  13. #88
    Veteran Member PretenderNX01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TroubleWithTrebles View Post
    People whom like Law and Order SUV tune into watch that TV show on TV. They rarely read comics. People who pay for comics pay for comic stories, not storyboards for LAOSUV and other crime TV shows with female protags such as Cold Case.
    Or like Orange is the New Black, or Bones which both started as books (well, Bones was a series of books). It seems TV and books have a market for female leads.

    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    What would work the best for these books and characters?
    I think he needs to go outside the monthly market and to graphic novels. He should look for the literary crowd but they are used to buying one whole longform story at a time instead of a chapter a month.

  14. #89
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    "Or like Orange is the New Black, or Bones which both started as books (well, Bones was a series of books). It seems TV and books have a market for female leads."

    Yes, for books and TV. Where female editors and producers (mostly) loathe and deride comic stuff as "fanboy crap" and don't even alter that stance when you mention how much $ Gail Simone and Nicole Scott have generated.

    The point remains that when comics are costing as much as a value meal, no one is gonna buy talking heads, even if a crime is part of the plot. Boring-ass visuals don't sell and nor should they, and the sample in the OP, visually, is boring as batshit.

  15. #90
    Incredible Member Kees_L's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    My point was about the minority characters and the genre books they publish. Not about the companies themselves.
    That really doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n View Post
    If the monthly readership remains the way it is now, those books and characters will continue to fail, hence the readers who do have an interest in specific properties will see less of them.
    Well yeah, hopefully.
    SLINT / Mike Mignola / Walt Whitman / Arthur Lourié / Dr. Pepper

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