The Comic Book Audience: Does anyone here side with or disagree with what this creator is saying?

[TroubleWithTrebles]

There's comics that aren't comprised with panels? I wasn't aware of these"

Likely because you have never done portfolio reviews for any paying company.

Or been at a company dinner or party where people on the publishing side of the con table complain about how many people show their "pages" that ate actually power shots close ups and random group shots, often with no BGs.

So unless you actually WORKED for one of the publishers complained about hete, it is understandable that your portfolio review acumen is relatively non existent.

[Pyrebomb]

All I get from his post is the same guilt trip I get from hundreds of struggling artists on tumblr, but with an added dose of, "If you don't like my story, you're a bigot." Which is in itself so hilariously tumblr it practically implodes on itself from the meta. Then I clicked on the links. Only one article even devotes a sentence to the actual content of his comic. The rest is all your typical sensationalist media crap. "Disabled person does a thing. Wow, it's almost like they're people, too!" The intent is to "inspire" able-bodied (and maybe some disabled) people with the idea of "If this guy can do what he does, then there is no reason that I can't." Not to get people interested in the book or sell copies. Suspicious he included links to such tangentially-related news pieces as proof that his book should be doing better but had none to demonstrate its "critical acclaim," I hunted one down off of his tumblr. I was right; they're pretty much the comic-book equivalent of Amazon comments.

Obviously the fact that he isn't well-known works to his detriment. Established creators have an easier time selling their work because of name-familiarity. But all of the additional whining that his actual first publication isn't doing well because it "features a predominantly female cast of characters, many of color, and with realistic body types instead of hyper-sexualized fap material" comes off as incredibly presumptuous while also being self-congratulatory. He seems to be saying it should be successful because of those things. Like he thought he could corner a "niche" market and snap up all of the sales. Considering how many independents are out there about queer women that are bound to be more authentic because they are written by queer women, I don't know why he is surprised. It's a highly competitive market. As others have already said, comics cost more today than they ever have. Mix that with the current economy, and there are a lot of books that just aren't going to make it. Regardless of how good they are. Hell, effective marketing and networking often account for more sales than actual quality. In which case, blaming everybody else that your book is failing and taking no responsibility for it yourself probably isn't the best tack. Asking people to "put their money where there mouth is" when the main reason you got this far was because of a successful kickstarter seems downright ungrateful.

[Carabas]

There's comics that aren't comprised with panels? I wasn't aware of these"

Likely because you have never done portfolio reviews for any paying company.

What the frell does this matter when talking about how the Big Two treats minority creators (an characters) in general as opposed to Larime in specific (althoughn have you personally seen Larime's portfolio?, of not, please stop going on about it then.)

[Goggindowner]

Okay, I've spent some time browsing the creator's Tumbler, looking at his pages he has posted and reading what dialogue was there, and quite frankly I don't know of any other way to say this. This guy's book has web comic written all over it. The page layouts aren't great, the dialogue isn't great, the whole thing just isn't great. The creator has a technical ability to draw human figures, but he is a very poor story teller. Like I said, it looks like a web comic.

Please understand, I mean to take nothing away from the accomplishment of overcoming a disability to follow a dream regardless of the obstacles put in front of you. BUT, looking at the work from a strictly critical point of view, not taking into consideration the process by which the work is created, there isn't anything about this that would make me want to buy it, regardless of what race or sexuality the main characters are. I would flip through it on the shelf and put it back, plain and simple. I don't buy entertainment because it was created in a unique way, I buy it because it entertains me.

There is potential here, because the guy has the technical drawing skills. He really needs to read some books that discuss panel layouts and story telling. Deciding how best to build a page that draws the reader in. If that aspect of his work never improves, his work will never rise above web comic level. And again, this looks like a web comic.

[Goggindowner]

Upon further review, I find that he is actually tracing over photos for his panels layouts.

A Bit About the Process

Here’s a look at all three stages of the process, from photo to my line art to Sylv’s colors. Anyone who thinks working from photos is tracing or cheating has never seen it in detail. Each step takes it further away from the source and ends with an entirely new creation.image

I understand the use of photo reference, every artist does that. I have, however, seen this process in detail because I have TRIED this process. I've created entire pages of material using this process. It is cheating, and it doesn't work. Comics have to have a sense of movement to them that you CANNOT create from a traced photo.

[ExcelsiorPrime]

All I get from his post is the same guilt trip I get from hundreds of struggling artists on tumblr, but with an added dose of, "If you don't like my story, you're a bigot." Which is in itself so hilariously tumblr it practically implodes on itself from the meta. .

being called a bigot is so easy to disprove as well. All you have to do is show a picture of yourself having minorities over for dinner.

[Pyrebomb]

Upon further review, I find that he is actually tracing over photos for his panels layouts.

A Bit About the Process



I understand the use of photo reference, every artist does that. I have, however, seen this process in detail because I have TRIED this process. I've created entire pages of material using this process. It is cheating, and it doesn't work. Comics have to have a sense of movement to them that you CANNOT create from a traced photo.

Wow. I have no words. None.

If this is how he goes about his art, then I think the question is "how did he get a deal with a publisher at all?" Not "why isn't it selling better?" This is such a gigantic no-no in the artistic community. It's visual plagiarism.

[TroubleWithTrebles]

Actually, Carabas, that reply and the attitude fueling it is precisely the kind of thing that editors and pros make fun of, mercilessly, at the end of the night after con days or signings. If you wish to be irritated because , when talking if the big 2, in the USA, you in Belgium likely have not so your irritation at my portfolio comments becomes specious, and truculent, too bad.

In fact, previously, during a several hour signing in the best comic shop in Eire, there was a guy with your exact tone and manner. After which he was mocked for three hours during many pints of Guinness led by the shopkeep himself. :-D. Way to perpetuate a stereotype, laddybuck.

[TroubleWithTrebles]

In Other words, ladies and gents, if nothing more than tumblr and FB is your goal... *WINK*

[TroubleWithTrebles]

Finally a username of Larami Taylor appears himself.

APPLAUSE FOR BRAVERY!

[Larime Taylor]

Wow am I late to this thread! I'll address things as I read in order. Off the top, no, it's not for eveyone.

As for the handful of claims (in over 700 notes on the Tumblr post) that I’m guilting anyone or accusing anyone of not supporting women, people of color, or kittens and puppies if they aren’t buying my book, I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Strongly. I think the post and the intent was pretty clear, and the vast majority of people reading it seem to agree. I wrote it in frustration, yes, and some things can always be worded better, but I’m seeing a few people ascribe to me an attitude that is simply not who I am.

I’m an ally in trying to improve representation in comics because I myself have been ignored, marginalized and treated as an ‘other’ because of my disability. I’m on your side. If you don’t like my book, or how I promote it, or it’s just not your thing, then that’s fine! Really, I don’t mind.

But as someone working in comics and seeing many others outside of DC and Marvel trying to bring diversity to the scene and watching them get ignored and get frustrated, too, I know I’m not making up a problem that doesn’t exist. We’re trying, and we’re losing the fight. We need help.

That’s all I’m really trying to say.

On to responses!

A Voice in the Dark is pretty bleak stuff: "normal" girl loves killing people and is on her way to becoming a serial killer, most of the victims are good-looking affluent girls and there's a lot of sexual content. The sex is mostly not very pleasant as it involves rape, exploitation, betrayal and the like.

Uh... no it doesn't? There has yet to be a single panel of nudity, no real cheesecake, and the majority of the violence is off-panel.

That said, it's well written and drawn and has a character-driven focus. But it also comes across as being written by a guy, in particular the focus on young, upper middle class, attractive female victims. In real life, women are relatively rarely murdered (you are many times more likely to be killed if you're a guy and it goes way up if you're a black guy) so that part of the series seems cliched and eye-rollingly exploitative, at least to me.

The main character goes to an upscale women's college. That's the setting, not a reflection of me being a guy.

In the end, it's a book about a serial killer who predominantly kills young women. Aside from the twist that it's a young woman who is doing the killing, it's just not a creative standout compared to the titles I mentioned earlier. I should add the disclaimer that maybe it's changed in nature since I last read it.

What issue(s) have you read? I'm curious as to the perspective.

[Larime Taylor]

makes me feel like if I don't buy his comic I'm bigoted. Maybe I can want female/ethnic characters and still not be into his particular comic.

Nope! It's not for everyone. I get that.

The stumbling point, as always, is that quality will equal sales. There's rarely a correlation between the two. I think that having a minority lead probably isn't helping matters, but I think the overall major problem is that Larime, despite being a fantastic talent, isn't that well known amongst the comics buying audience. You can point to Saga, Fatale, Velvet, or Sex Criminals, but the truth is that it was the creators that sold those books before we ever knew how good they were. I don't mind Larime calling out fandom because there's nothing else he can really do to get most fans outside of their comfort zone besides getting recruited at the Big Two, which doesn't help with Voice in the Dark right now.

Pretty much this. My book isn't failing because it has a female lead (and I even said in the original post that I don't really believe that). I'm not a name. People complain about the lack of diversity in comics, but only go with the big names. There ARE creators like me and others doing diverse stories, but we're on the fringes. My point was that instead of continuing to yell at the rest of the industry for lacking diversity, go find books that have it.

True, though you can say this about most non-Big Two comics. Would Black Science be a hit without Remender's name on it? Etc. There are exceptions though, like Rat Queens (another female-led title). But it does seem as though most top-selling independent titles are driven by well-known creators.

So yeah, in the end I'd say the female-lead part is the least of this title's problems. A lack of name recognition and a not-in-a-good-way creepiness are probably bigger factors.

Agreed on name recognition. As for the 'creepy dude' thing, I have had countless women readers thank me for writing realistic women. To each their own.

Considering some of my most favorite comics have strong female leads, no I don't agree with Larime. Rat Queens represents the LGBT community well and has a very ethnic diverse cast. It's in my top 5 list for sure.

I think the bigger issue here is the price of comics. People have a limited budget so people are not picking up as many titles as they used to. I know this is the case for me. There's tons of comics that I would love to pick up but right now I feel my monthly pull list is already out of control. I now only pick up only my most favorite books monthly and trade wait for books that have gotten good reviews that I feel I would enjoy.

Price, and the ever-growing competition are part of it, yeah.

[Larime Taylor]

makes me feel like if I don't buy his comic I'm bigoted. Maybe I can want female/ethnic characters and still not be into his particular comic.

The stumbling point, as always, is that quality will equal sales. There's rarely a correlation between the two. I think that having a minority lead probably isn't helping matters, but I think the overall major problem is that Larime, despite being a fantastic talent, isn't that well known amongst the comics buying audience. You can point to Saga, Fatale, Velvet, or Sex Criminals, but the truth is that it was the creators that sold those books before we ever knew how good they were. I don't mind Larime calling out fandom because there's nothing else he can really do to get most fans outside of their comfort zone besides getting recruited at the Big Two, which doesn't help with Voice in the Dark right now.

True, though you can say this about most non-Big Two comics. Would Black Science be a hit without Remender's name on it? Etc. There are exceptions though, like Rat Queens (another female-led title). But it does seem as though most top-selling independent titles are driven by well-known creators.

So yeah, in the end I'd say the female-lead part is the least of this title's problems. A lack of name recognition and a not-in-a-good-way creepiness are probably bigger factors.

Considering some of my most favorite comics have strong female leads, no I don't agree with Larime. Rat Queens represents the LGBT community well and has a very ethnic diverse cast. It's in my top 5 list for sure.

I think the bigger issue here is the price of comics. People have a limited budget so people are not picking up as many titles as they used to. I know this is the case for me. There's tons of comics that I would love to pick up but right now I feel my monthly pull list is already out of control. I now only pick up only my most favorite books monthly and trade wait for books that have gotten good reviews that I feel I would enjoy.

It just seems to me that the guy is doing a terrible job of marketing his book
It seems to be sold on the basis of a) it having a female person of colour as the main character, and b) the guy draws it with his mouth. For most people, that's just not good enough. If I want to know more, like what the book is actually about, beyond a girl that wants to kill but doesn't, I need to start to do research.

How exactly should he market it? In what venues?

He's marketing it right now by going on a controversial rant and bringing attention to the title. I suspect most of the people in this thread has never heard of the title until now.

I write, draw, and letter a monthly book by myself. Marketing gets squeezed in somewhere between eating and sleeping.

[Tupiaz]

http://community.comicbookresources....l=1#post457785

So basically many of the major comics sites has not spoken about the story a few have made reviews but this is in it self a story worth noticing. Behind the Panel has by the way been one of his biggest supporter.

[Pinsir]

Wow am I late to this thread! I'll address things as I read in order. Off the top, no, it's not for eveyone.

As for the handful of claims (in over 700 notes on the Tumblr post) that I’m guilting anyone or accusing anyone of not supporting women, people of color, or kittens and puppies if they aren’t buying my book, I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Strongly. I think the post and the intent was pretty clear, and the vast majority of people reading it seem to agree. I wrote it in frustration, yes, and some things can always be worded better, but I’m seeing a few people ascribe to me an attitude that is simply not who I am.

I’m an ally in trying to improve representation in comics because I myself have been ignored, marginalized and treated as an ‘other’ because of my disability. I’m on your side. If you don’t like my book, or how I promote it, or it’s just not your thing, then that’s fine! Really, I don’t mind.

But as someone working in comics and seeing many others outside of DC and Marvel trying to bring diversity to the scene and watching them get ignored and get frustrated, too, I know I’m not making up a problem that doesn’t exist. We’re trying, and we’re losing the fight. We need help.

That’s all I’m really trying to say.

On to responses!



Uh... no it doesn't? There has yet to be a single panel of nudity, no real cheesecake, and the majority of the violence is off-panel.



The main character goes to an upscale women's college. That's the setting, not a reflection of me being a guy.



What issue(s) have you read? I'm curious as to the perspective.

We do not doubt your intentions sir, but I think I and some others have pointed out that those who want diversity are usually the ones complaining that comics are so 'grim dark.' I think the success of Mrs. Marvel proves there is a market, but at the same its bright, cheery and memeful.

For me personally, the first none DC comic I bought was Rocketgirl (who is Asian), then latter Mrs. Marvel. Dark comics just don't interest me that much.