The Comic Book Audience: Does anyone here side with or disagree with what this creator is saying?

[Larime Taylor]

This guy's real issue isn't his book or lacking an audience for his book. The problem is the way in which is decided to distribute it. I understand that he is looking to make a living off of monthly sales, but that was NEVER a realistic expectation to go into a venture such as this with.

While I understand that he believes monthlies are going to be his bread and butter, at this stage in his game he really needs to be focusing on selling the trades. His audience is out there, but they aren't weekly comic shop customers. They are the set that pops into a shop every so often and checks out the trades, or browses online for trades. Cape comics are what sell monthly. Anything else is going to struggle without having an established talent attached to it.

Trades without monthlies almost always sell terribly. Especially indies.

I hope that whatever happens he sticks in there. Maybe this project isn't the one that hits it big, but it might give him enough recognition that his next one does.

What a creator or artist needs to do is keep on sluggin', keep on creating, as amassing stuff both as experience, onto creating new or more opportunity.

Without dwelling on the past too much, without dwelling on whatever too much.

Your questions of markets and expansion seem too fixated even if well meant. No professional and not anybody awaits perfect validity or perfect sense prior to whatever they would do - or they'll be fixated. Becoming static like glue or weighed down. Definitely, or risk and personality and passion couldn't be to exist. Or either stubbornness and being wrong wouldn't exist. And all that will exist, surely. For everyone.

Any knowing better will just be something to happen when it would. Which wouldn't necessarily help any other or more being wrong from being possible just the same.
Any *knowing all just perfectly* is not anything belonging to our modes of operation, as we'd best focus on what would need our focus the most.
Since everything to happen won't necessarily evolve only around our own selves or our expectations, the world won't move according to only our strategies or inclinations, but instead all that happens completely the other way around.

That's why all and everyone being succesful or genius or excelling at whatever always says (or should): "hey it happened, despite me more rather than (only) because of me".

I'm not going anywhere. I'll keep working, whether on this book or another.

[Larime Taylor]

I am assuming that Laramie is reading this thread.

As someone with a friend who had to give up a long illustrious career as a tenured Professor dependent on speaking eloquently and publically, after spinal cord injuries robbed him of that so he had to segue into working from the written form,

We have to address the elephant in the room, here.

You know what I mean here. As do my friends with MS , combinations of spinal bifida and cerebral palsy, macular degeneration, etc.

The others won't address this but *I* will, since we ARE facing a minority problem here, but not a queer, female or racial one.

You know what I mean and why it has to be aired, because as you are a good writer, possibly to become a great one, you have now anticipated that there are days where I need the railing alongside the ramp.

Alan Moore and Morrison know when it's time to hire an artist. It is no concession on your part at any time when you do the same, until political half wits stop blocking stem cell advances.

Hugs to you and hopes that the series sales increase, come what what may.

I'm not the greatest artist, no. I'm better than some being published and can hold my own, though.

I draw the book because I can't afford an artist, and artists good enough to get published expect a page rate unless you're a name writer.

Simple as that.

[Larime Taylor]

WHEN did Larami begin SEQUENTIAL pages?

I started in 2012 after being a caricature artist for 24 years.

[Larime Taylor]

All I get from his post is the same guilt trip I get from hundreds of struggling artists on tumblr, but with an added dose of, "If you don't like my story, you're a bigot." Which is in itself so hilariously tumblr it practically implodes on itself from the meta. Then I clicked on the links. Only one article even devotes a sentence to the actual content of his comic. The rest is all your typical sensationalist media crap. "Disabled person does a thing. Wow, it's almost like they're people, too!" The intent is to "inspire" able-bodied (and maybe some disabled) people with the idea of "If this guy can do what he does, then there is no reason that I can't." Not to get people interested in the book or sell copies. Suspicious he included links to such tangentially-related news pieces as proof that his book should be doing better but had none to demonstrate its "critical acclaim," I hunted one down off of his tumblr. I was right; they're pretty much the comic-book equivalent of Amazon comments.

Those are links to reviews from all the major review sites - hardly the equivalent of Amazon comments.

Obviously the fact that he isn't well-known works to his detriment. Established creators have an easier time selling their work because of name-familiarity. But all of the additional whining that his actual first publication isn't doing well because it "features a predominantly female cast of characters, many of color, and with realistic body types instead of hyper-sexualized fap material" comes off as incredibly presumptuous while also being self-congratulatory. He seems to be saying it should be successful because of those things. Like he thought he could corner a "niche" market and snap up all of the sales. Considering how many independents are out there about queer women that are bound to be more authentic because they are written by queer women, I don't know why he is surprised. It's a highly competitive market. As others have already said, comics cost more today than they ever have. Mix that with the current economy, and there are a lot of books that just aren't going to make it. Regardless of how good they are. Hell, effective marketing and networking often account for more sales than actual quality. In which case, blaming everybody else that your book is failing and taking no responsibility for it yourself probably isn't the best tack. Asking people to "put their money where there mouth is" when the main reason you got this far was because of a successful kickstarter seems downright ungrateful.

That's not what I said, but okay. Sure.

[Larime Taylor]

Upon further review, I find that he is actually tracing over photos for his panels layouts.

A Bit About the Process



I understand the use of photo reference, every artist does that. I have, however, seen this process in detail because I have TRIED this process. I've created entire pages of material using this process. It is cheating, and it doesn't work. Comics have to have a sense of movement to them that you CANNOT create from a traced photo.

I'm not 'tracing' and it's not cheating. Lots of pros reference - I use my own photos. And considering I can't look at something and draw at the same time - the pen is in my mouth - it's how I have to work. I'm getting much better at movement, motion and freehanding (freemouthing?) with every issue.

Also, I've had 14 different models pose as Zoey over 8 issues, ranging from 5'0 to 6'1, stick thin to curvy. If I was just tracing, that would be a serious problem.

[Larime Taylor]

Wow. I have no words. None.

If this is how he goes about his art, then I think the question is "how did he get a deal with a publisher at all?" Not "why isn't it selling better?" This is such a gigantic no-no in the artistic community. It's visual plagiarism.

You really don't get photo-referencing, do you? It's a common industry standard. I had a 30 minute conversation at SDCC with Fiona Staples about how we both draw on the same type tablet reffing our own photos. How can we plagiarize ourselves?

EDIT TO ADD: I'll be at a con all week and weekend, so may not respond much after this for a while!

[Larime Taylor]

We do not doubt your intentions sir, but I think I and some others have pointed out that those who want diversity are usually the ones complaining that comics are so 'grim dark.' I think the success of Mrs. Marvel proves there is a market, but at the same its bright, cheery and memeful.

For me personally, the first none DC comic I bought was Rocketgirl (who is Asian), then latter Mrs. Marvel. Dark comics just don't interest me that much.

And that's fair. I appreciate the feedback!

[Carabas]

Upon further review, I find that he is actually tracing over photos for his panels layouts.

A Bit About the Process



I understand the use of photo reference, every artist does that. I have, however, seen this process in detail because I have TRIED this process. I've created entire pages of material using this process. It is cheating, and it doesn't work. Comics have to have a sense of movement to them that you CANNOT create from a traced photo.

Alex Ross and Tony Harris would like to have words with you.

Wow. I have no words. None.

If this is how he goes about his art, then I think the question is "how did he get a deal with a publisher at all?" Not "why isn't it selling better?" This is such a gigantic no-no in the artistic community. It's visual plagiarism.

It's only plagiarism if you're tracing other people's photos without permission. Like Greg Land has made a career out of.

[Pyrebomb]

Wow am I late to this thread! I'll address things as I read in order. Off the top, no, it's not for eveyone.

As for the handful of claims (in over 700 notes on the Tumblr post) that I’m guilting anyone or accusing anyone of not supporting women, people of color, or kittens and puppies if they aren’t buying my book, I respect your opinion, but I disagree. Strongly. I think the post and the intent was pretty clear, and the vast majority of people reading it seem to agree. I wrote it in frustration, yes, and some things can always be worded better, but I’m seeing a few people ascribe to me an attitude that is simply not who I am.

I’m an ally in trying to improve representation in comics because I myself have been ignored, marginalized and treated as an ‘other’ because of my disability. I’m on your side. If you don’t like my book, or how I promote it, or it’s just not your thing, then that’s fine! Really, I don’t mind.

But as someone working in comics and seeing many others outside of DC and Marvel trying to bring diversity to the scene and watching them get ignored and get frustrated, too, I know I’m not making up a problem that doesn’t exist. We’re trying, and we’re losing the fight. We need help.

That’s all I’m really trying to say.

Those are links to reviews from all the major review sites - hardly the equivalent of Amazon comments.

Apologies. I'm unfamiliar with the site and thought I was in the "user review" section, as those tend to be much more populated than the critical section.

That's not what I said, but okay. Sure.

It's your tone. I probably added a lot of my own negativity to it, having had some very bad recent experiences with artists on tumblr that I really don't want to get into, but I'm not the first person to read it as "guilt-tripping" or negative in nature. As you said, you were frustrated when you wrote it, so that is understandable. God knows that I have said 100 times worse when in a similar frame of mind. But as other people have stated, tumblr is your main method of marketing, right now. I know dozens of artists who have successfully used tumblr to establish a fanbase and begin the arduous journey of breaking into the industry. I know others who aren't quite as successful. (And by "know," I don't mean I recognize their URL in passing. I mean we've chatted on Skype or AIM or even met at cons.) The main difference is tone. It's the old adage of "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

Don't make posts when you are in a negative mindset. Or if you have to, fake it. Act like you are the happiest, humblest person in the world. Just comparing your responses in this thread to what I scrolled through on the first few pages of your tumblr, I see a marked difference. It's highly ironic that I'm telling you this, as I do not have a great reputation for being positive and upbeat, but then I also have a pretty good idea of how most tumblr users are going to react to anything they don't feel comes from a butterfly-filled place of sunshine. I think if your tumblr post had been more along the lines of the appeal I have quoted, it would have been seen in a more positive light and met with a more positive response. This is why celebs have PR people. But you have to be your own PR person, so it's always good to take a few steps back and think of how the words you choose are going to come across. Because words always carry implications beyond their literal meanings, and you might not be aware of them if you're too emotional or stuck in your own headspace. If that's the case, ask a friend to read it before you post it. Or leave any emotional judgements out of it entirely. Tell us about your story and post previews. Heck, even mention that sales are bad and signal boosts are appreciated. But don't tell us why you think it isn't doing great because you don't really know. You don't know what the mindset of people uninterested in your product is. And you likely won't know what story-telling choices you made didn't work until it has been behind you for a bit. It's very hard to self-evaluate in the middle of a project. That comes after. I don't mean to tell you what to do, I'm just offering honest advice as someone who has observed tumblr culture, and more specifically the artistic side of it, for a good while.

Personally, I find the fact that this whole project seems to have gotten its start on tumblr (I hope I'm not making an incorrect assumption that that is where you advertised your kickstarter) intriguing as all hell. Tumblr seems to be simultaneously the best and worst place to market this. A comic filled with minorities created entirely by a disabled artist? That is the sort of shit they will eat up. The actual subject matter? Well... Let's just say one of the reviews I read on that website said something along the lines of "this entire comic is a giant trigger warning." And then I laughed because I knew that reader was from tumblr.

It's only plagiarism if you're tracing other people's photos without permission. Like Greg Land has made a career out of.

Duly noted. And that is why he is such a joke in the industry. I still don't know how he gets hired at all, yet alone consistently by the Big 2.

[Goggindowner]

I'm not 'tracing' and it's not cheating. Lots of pros reference - I use my own photos. And considering I can't look at something and draw at the same time - the pen is in my mouth - it's how I have to work. I'm getting much better at movement, motion and freehanding (freemouthing?) with every issue.

Also, I've had 14 different models pose as Zoey over 8 issues, ranging from 5'0 to 6'1, stick thin to curvy. If I was just tracing, that would be a serious problem.

It isn't often that we get to actually interact with a creator on here, so right off the bat I want to say that I appreciate, as a comic reader, the fact that you came in here and faced the masses, so to speak. I also hope that you understand where I'm coming from with my criticism. Art is subjective, of course, but I'm trying my best to offer something constructive and not just be negative. And like I said, I understand every artist uses photo ref; I do it, the pros do it, it isn't plagiarism if you're using your own photos (which it appears you are). My point is, pulling so heavily from a posed photo creates a flat, lifeless image. You don't get any life in the drawing that way. And I also understand that it isn't just tracing, I should have worded that better. I have taken photos of me and used them for three or four characters on the same page, none of which looked like me. Like I said, I've done what you are doing, and it all comes down to edits, flourishes, simple changes, reworking faces, etc etc. I get it. But regardless of how much I changed an image of me that I went over, it still looked like a photo that got traced as a comic panel. There was stiff, lifelessness that I couldn't get out of the pages, no matter how much shading, coloring or doctoring I did. I even went so far as "tracing" the page, printing it, then hand "tracing" and shading it into a 100% pencil drawn page. It was still there. My anatomy was spot on, but everything else just felt wrong. Your work has the same quality. I'm not going to dance around it, because you seem genuinely frustrated and want to know why you aren't getting traction. This is one of the reasons.

[Goggindowner]

Alex Ross and Tony Harris would like to have words with you.


It's only plagiarism if you're tracing other people's photos without permission. Like Greg Land has made a career out of.

I would put this work closer to Greg Land than either of those other two, and Greg Land is one of the most decisive artists in modern comics, and commonly gets called a tracer. Yeah, he is making a career out of it, but his shadow boxing wasn't nearly as prominent when he was establishing himself as it now.

[Carabas]

I would put this work closer to Greg Land than either of those other two, and Greg Land is one of the most decisive artists in modern comics, and commonly gets called a tracer. Yeah, he is making a career out of it, but his shadow boxing wasn't nearly as prominent when he was establishing himself as it now.

Greg Land has two problems. One is that he can't even trace properly, and the other is that he's a plagiarist.
I can't really judge Larime's art, having seen virtually none of it, but he does not trace other people's work.

[Goggindowner]

Greg Land has two problems. One is that he can't even trace properly, and the other is that he's a plagiarist.
I can't really judge Larime's art, having seen virtually none of it, but he does not trace other people's work.

I never said he did. I'm drawing the (admittedly poor) comparison to the quality of the finished page.

The dynamic storytelling is stifled by the reliance on photo reference.

[Carabas]

I never said he did. I'm drawing the (admittedly poor) comparison to the quality of the finished page.

The dynamic storytelling is stifled by the reliance on photo reference.

Dynamic storytelling is not all that important when you're not drawing superhero comics.

It's astonishing how complete dominance of one genre has completely warped expectations of what can and can't be done in the medium.

[Goggindowner]

Dynamic storytelling is not all that important when you're not drawing superhero comics.

It's astonishing how complete dominance of one genre has completely warped expectations of what can and can't be done in the medium.

Dynamic art is necessary for any book that wants to reach certain levels of sales and success. Boring art is boring art, regardless of story. Art can make a story about a flower growing at least interesting to look at. You can't make web comic quality work and then complain that you can't find a monthly audience. He put his work on the same shelf with some of the best creators in the modern market, and to be quite frank, it doesn't stack up.