The Comic Book Audience: Does anyone here side with or disagree with what this creator is saying?

[dupont2005]

So in other words, he has to start relying on gimmicks to draw readers in instead of the quality of the book itself?

In the short term, yes. Look at the Diamond top three hundred. How many of those comics aren't superhero, aren't licensed, and don't have a hit tv show/movie? Not many.

In the long term, look at the New York Times bestselling graphic novels. Guardians Of The Galaxy is the only super hero comic on that list. Persepolis is on there twice, Maus is still on there. Smile has been on there consecutively for over two years straight.

Fifty percent of the NYT graphic novel bestsellers feature female artists. Eighty percent are creator owned. Zero are licensed. It's a different market, and one he should focus on.

[CliffHanger2]

He does have a point, in that people say they want more diversity. But when those books pop up those same people may not buy the book even though it's good.

At the same time he's gotten alot farther than many indie creators but expecting to make a living off comics might be a little unrealistic. Maybe he should do some trade shows and get his book to his audience face to face. Because at this point even if he switched to superheroes it would probably be the same result unless he's working for the big two.

[Shawn Hopkins]

He does have a point, in that people say they want more diversity. But when those books pop up those same people may not buy the book even though it's good.

To be fair, I don't think the people who asked for more realistic diverse characters were really hoping for a guy to come along and say "I've created a multi-racial bisexual chick that just looooves to murder!" Not saying there's no place for that, just that it's not the easiest sell.

[Kees_L]

Fifty percent of the NYT graphic novel bestsellers feature female artists. Eighty percent are creator owned. Zero are licensed. It's a different market, and one he should focus on.

This. (Plus as soon as a product changes from floppy monthly into TPB your market venue grows because online book chains like Barnes & Noble will sell you.)

And this:

He does have a point, in that people say they want more diversity. But when those books pop up those same people may not buy the book even though it's good.

At the same time he's gotten alot farther than many indie creators but expecting to make a living off comics might be a little unrealistic. Maybe he should do some trade shows and get his book to his audience face to face. Because at this point even if he switched to superheroes it would probably be the same result unless he's working for the big two.

This thread has been just so astute and on point so far I feel. As seeming brimming with solid advice and ideas.

It especially seems to click with me how a lot to the publishing business would be about both the internet like a website complete with store, plus at the other hand how a consistent schedule of face-to-face meet-ups like in-store signings and accessible conventions might make that happen.

As a comics consumer I have personally been interested exclusively in stuff from companies like First Comics and later on Dark Horse Comics both as Fleskes Publications or IDW for the Artist Editions, a lot of which I've met in person, within the Netherlands where I live, like from Bill Stout, John Fleskes, Mike Mignola, to Gary Gianni and Mark Schultz.

Not to say I would hate any Big Two on principle but from them I'll only be wanting quality reprints from older acclaimed stuff.
Any hypy new stuff within the margin (I like Dan Hipp or Andrew Maclean's Head Lopper) I'll hate neither, but the having an exclusive online store would be a must for me in order to be buying any of that, as shops in Europe aren't likely stocking up on much of it in all likelyhood.

[Mikekerr3]

agree with asking the audience to step up

the problem is, the audience doesn't like being "told"

You can't bla,e the audience for buying what it likes, telling them what they should like is sheer hubris

[The S0/\/\@7ic Si/\/\[]Dl370n]

If people don't have problems with things like Dexter and the Punisher, why would they suddenly have problems with this?

quality does not always equal success...in some cases yes, but you do have to do a fair amount of pandering to get people in the door, and once youve established your base, you can start doing the stuff you really want to do

Accept that good non superhero comics do not sell in the numbers the worst superhero comics do. Terry Moore quit comics because of it. I'm sure this guy is good, but is he so much better than Terry Moore that he should expect a different result?

The sad fact is the comic would sell better if it had a Liefeld variant cover.

So this... basically confirms the guy's fears.

In the short term, yes. Look at the Diamond top three hundred. How many of those comics aren't superhero, aren't licensed, and don't have a hit tv show/movie? Not many.

In the long term, look at the New York Times bestselling graphic novels. Guardians Of The Galaxy is the only super hero comic on that list. Persepolis is on there twice, Maus is still on there. Smile has been on there consecutively for over two years straight.

Fifty percent of the NYT graphic novel bestsellers feature female artists. Eighty percent are creator owned. Zero are licensed. It's a different market, and one he should focus on.

So basically, there's no hope for monthlies?

He does have a point, in that people say they want more diversity. But when those books pop up those same people may not buy the book even though it's good.

At the same time he's gotten alot farther than many indie creators but expecting to make a living off comics might be a little unrealistic. Maybe he should do some trade shows and get his book to his audience face to face. Because at this point even if he switched to superheroes it would probably be the same result unless he's working for the big two.

But where would he get the money to do this?

[dupont2005]

So basically, there's no hope for monthlies?

If it's not superhero and not licensed there's hope for the first issue, if it's published by Image. And variant covers by J. Scott Campbell. If you get one of those it will sell. Quality doesn't matter in monthlies. The property licensed and the speculator appeal are what matters.

The direct market is also not the area of comics experiencing a whole lot of growth. We're not seeing shops closing left and right like we were for a while, but we're not seeing them opening left and right either. While the comics industry grows, the direct market remains stagnant. Digital distribution, online distribution of printed goods, and even bookstore distribution of comics and graphic novels is growing at a very healthy pace. Bookstores might not last for long, because although the number of comics stocked and sold at bookstores is rapidly multiplying, bookstores are slowly closing as well.

Monthlies will last for quite a while. I see a decade being the absolute earliest we can see them lose their place as the most common format of comic book. But no matter the health of the direct market, it's a badgirl variant cover speculator market that likes Spiderman and hates originality. Anyone creating something fresh has to account for that. I think I can say Jeff Smith's Bone is a masterpiece without exaggerating. It eventually got picked up by Image, and Scholastic, but if he didn't self publish it in the extremely low print runs he had to deal with in the first place, we'd have never gotten the opportunity to read it. And in the long run, it's going to be the most profitable work he's ever done. It's going to remain in print perpetually, it will sell millions of copies in multiple languages internationally, if it hasn't already. That's because it's good, not because Deadpool was on the cover.

[Shawn Hopkins]

If people don't have problems with things like Dexter and the Punisher, why would they suddenly have problems with this?

I don't think they'll have a problem with it, but I also don't think there's a lot of overlap between the people that would eagerly buy it and people who are calling for more diversity in comics. I don't think it's fair to ask them to hold their nose and buy a book about an unpleasant topic just because it has a diverse lead.

[CSTowle]

If it's not superhero and not licensed there's hope for the first issue, if it's published by Image. And variant covers by J. Scott Campbell. If you get one of those it will sell. Quality doesn't matter in monthlies. The property licensed and the speculator appeal are what matters.

The direct market is also not the area of comics experiencing a whole lot of growth. We're not seeing shops closing left and right like we were for a while, but we're not seeing them opening left and right either. While the comics industry grows, the direct market remains stagnant. Digital distribution, online distribution of printed goods, and even bookstore distribution of comics and graphic novels is growing at a very healthy pace. Bookstores might not last for long, because although the number of comics stocked and sold at bookstores is rapidly multiplying, bookstores are slowly closing as well.

Monthlies will last for quite a while. I see a decade being the absolute earliest we can see them lose their place as the most common format of comic book. But no matter the health of the direct market, it's a badgirl variant cover speculator market that likes Spiderman and hates originality. Anyone creating something fresh has to account for that. I think I can say Jeff Smith's Bone is a masterpiece without exaggerating. It eventually got picked up by Image, and Scholastic, but if he didn't self publish it in the extremely low print runs he had to deal with in the first place, we'd have never gotten the opportunity to read it. And in the long run, it's going to be the most profitable work he's ever done. It's going to remain in print perpetually, it will sell millions of copies in multiple languages internationally, if it hasn't already. That's because it's good, not because Deadpool was on the cover.

It also helps that it's cartoony and accessible to all ages. Like superhero comics used to be.

[CliffHanger2]

To be fair, I don't think the people who asked for more realistic diverse characters were really hoping for a guy to come along and say "I've created a multi-racial bisexual chick that just looooves to murder!" Not saying there's no place for that, just that it's not the easiest sell.

Yeah it is kind of a niche within a niche.

[CliffHanger2]

This. (Plus as soon as a product changes from floppy monthly into TPB your market venue grows because online book chains like Barnes & Noble will sell you.)

And this:


This thread has been just so astute and on point so far I feel. As seeming brimming with solid advice and ideas.

It especially seems to click with me how a lot to the publishing business would be about both the internet like a website complete with store, plus at the other hand how a consistent schedule of face-to-face meet-ups like in-store signings and accessible conventions might make that happen.

As a comics consumer I have personally been interested exclusively in stuff from companies like First Comics and later on Dark Horse Comics both as Fleskes Publications or IDW for the Artist Editions, a lot of which I've met in person, within the Netherlands where I live, like from Bill Stout, John Fleskes, Mike Mignola, to Gary Gianni and Mark Schultz.

Not to say I would hate any Big Two on principle but from them I'll only be wanting quality reprints from older acclaimed stuff.
Any hypy new stuff within the margin (I like Dan Hipp or Andrew Maclean's Head Lopper) I'll hate neither, but the having an exclusive online store would be a must for me in order to be buying any of that, as shops in Europe aren't likely stocking up on much of it in all likelyhood.

Yeah I think distribution is dominated by big companies. For an independent creator it's better to interact with fans in person to get the message out it's good to have an online store too.

[CliffHanger2]

But where would he get the money to do this?

He doesn't seem to have a problem raising money. He can just tell people what it's for an upcoming book tour, the big cons are really expensive but the alternative/smaller ones are a lot cheaper.

[dupont2005]

It also helps that it's cartoony and accessible to all ages. Like superhero comics used to be.

That seems to have zero effect on sales. Amazing Spiderman is going to sell what Amazing Spiderman sells no matter who illustrates it, no matter who writes it. The number on the cover can boost sales, the number of variants can boost sales, the talent has almost no measurable effect on the comics sales.

[PretenderNX01]

I don't think they'll have a problem with it, but I also don't think there's a lot of overlap between the people that would eagerly buy it and people who are calling for more diversity in comics. I don't think it's fair to ask them to hold their nose and buy a book about an unpleasant topic just because it has a diverse lead.

Yeah, it doesn't really fill the diversity quota when people are calling for more superheroes and he gives us a serial killer
The fact that he draws with his mouth is amazing but it's still not a product I want.

If people don't have problems with things like Dexter and the Punisher, why would they suddenly have problems with this?

Well I'm not into Dexter or Punisher but that does bring up a point, maybe he should buy targeted ads on Facebook for people who "like" either of those.

So basically, there's no hope for monthlies?

They're kind of like radio, not dying out entirely but not the dominant form of entertainment they used to be. even DC is trying to get into the higher-brow graphic novel game with their "Earth One" books.

I think his best chance is to go after non-comic people with his work but that's an easier sell when you have a beginning middle and end, aka a complete graphic novel.

[CSTowle]

That seems to have zero effect on sales. Amazing Spiderman is going to sell what Amazing Spiderman sells no matter who illustrates it, no matter who writes it. The number on the cover can boost sales, the number of variants can boost sales, the talent has almost no measurable effect on the comics sales.

In the monthly issue market you're probably right. I haven't looked at sales figures, but I'd guess Amazing Spider-Man single issue sales are pretty consistent (outside of new #1 every couple of years) over the past decade or so or near enough not to make much of a difference. It will have an effect on graphic novel sales. I'd imagine (again, don't have the numbers) that early issue collections and stand-out storylines like "Kraven's Last Hunt" tend to sell better than most Spider-Man collections. Some runs weren't popular enough to even be collected.

I think the reason Ultimate Spider-Man was such a success (which unfortunately brought us the rest of the Ultimate universe) was because it stripped away all of the old continuity (which at the time was so twisted and illogical that it was hard even for die-hards to follow, not to mention far too dark) and had a talented creative team. Bendis gets a lot of hate, but I'd say aside from "Untold Tales" by Kurt Busiek his Spider-Man was the best version to come out since I started reading Spider-Man comics. Bagley is solid, and was so tied to the character that it made old-school fans comfortable, and high school stories are fun for people in high school, people who've been through high school, or kids looking forward to it. I liked the Spider-Marriage and seeing Peter make his way in the adult world, but I get the appeal of a teen hero.