Batman only makes sense in the Justice League if...?

[MoneySpider]

Again I have to ask why out of all the regular humans on superhero teams is Batman's usefulness singled out and questioned so much? There aren't threads like this for Black Widow and Hawkeye in the Marvel forum. Or the various Batfamily members on different teams. What does someone like Green Arrow provide to the League? Does he bring anything to the table that Bruce doesn't already bring?

I get no one wants "Batgod" around making others look bad but there can be a happy medium. Sure he can be off field giving instructions to other heroes but most people don't want to see that. What's visually exciting about seeing someone sitting down and giving orders? Fans want to see him getting physical and fighting so the "he doesn't need to be in the battles" arguments don't work.

If we want to be super realistic only the top 1% of the most powerful JL members are really needed anyway. Even if they do have powers what can the likes of Aquaman really offer that Superman or Martian Manhunter don't?

To be honest, I don't think any non-powered heroes should be on the Justice League or the Avengers. And on the flip side of your argument (which I can half-way understand), I've seen people question what someone like Vixen brings to the table in terms of being on the Justice League, but don't ever seem to question why Batman should be on the team.

[The True Detective]

To be honest, I don't think any non-powered heroes should be on the Justice League or the Avengers. And on the flip side of your argument (which I can half-way understand), I've seen people question what someone like Vixen brings to the table in terms of being on the Justice League, but don't ever seem to question why Batman should be on the team.

I didn't mean to imply other heroes don't have their usefulness questioned too, they definitely do, just that it happens to Batman the most. There's at least one thread a month asking what he offers to the JL or bringing up how unrealistic it is when he fights meta's.

[SiegePerilous02]

Batman gets singled out because he's a non-powered hero who nevertheless has stronger plot armor than any other hero on the team and frequently undermines the upper tier heroes by being able to take them down in pretty stupid ways or punching way above his weight class against villains that challenge the others (like out-running Darkseid's Omega Beams, taking out 5 White Martians, taking out Cheetah in a single punch, judo throwing Kalibak, etc.). It's ridiculous, and not something we see happen with, say, Green Arrow.

Batman SHOULD be on the team, simply because the premise of the team is that they are DC's big guns and he is a founding member. Trying to go for deeper justifications is kind of pointless, like the bank roll thing. Due to who else is on the team, the JL has access to Kryptonioan, Thanagarian, Amazon and Atlantean technology, all of which are way more advanced than anything Bruce would have access to pay for. And if they need money, like people say, Superman can just casually whip up some diamonds, Aquaman has access to all sorts of sunken treasures and Wonder Woman can just sell one of her mom's vases or something. He's on the team because he genuinely likes and trusts them and believes in the work they are doing. Bat-God is unnecessary as well. It takes away his main appeal (that he is a vulnerable human) and only Morrison was able to sell it in a way that doesn't **** on the other heroes anyway. His deductive reasoning and the ability to get inside the heads of criminals (and it doesn't just have to be human ones) is more than enough for him to bring to the table.

Like in a Legion of Doom story, Superman knows how to get in Lex's head but is also too close to the Lex situation to be effective 100%, and Lex of course knows how to get in his. Batman being around to pick up the slack in such stories justifies Bruce being there.

[MoneySpider]

Another reason why I don't think Batman should be on the Justice League is that for a man who is supposed to be so obsessed with stopping all crime in Gotham, and doesn't come out in the daytime and therefore would probably need to rest as much as possible in the daytime, how on Earth does he have time to be hanging out with the Justice League in any great capacity?

This is the same guy who sometimes will not accept or does not want help from his allies who live in Gotham, which leaves even more work for him to do in Gotham, yet he has time to leave Gotham and let the police handle things crime-wise while he is out of town to be with the Justice League as much as he is.

[TheBlackTerror]

The best iteration of Batman is a social animal. He lost his parents and has empathy for others who have gone through similar tragedies--of which there are many on the Justice League. So he hangs out with them because he likes them.

This. If I could upvote x 1000, this. But then I hate BatGod and GrimDark Batman so what do I know?

[SiegePerilous02]

Another reason why I don't think Batman should be on the Justice League is that for a man who is supposed to be so obsessed with stopping all crime in Gotham, and doesn't come out in the daytime and therefore would probably need to rest as much as possible in the daytime, how on Earth does he have time to be hanging out with the Justice League in any great capacity?

This is the same guy who sometimes will not accept or does not want help from his allies who live in Gotham, which leaves even more work for him to do in Gotham, yet he has time to leave Gotham and let the police handle things crime-wise while he is out of town to be with the Justice League as much as he is.

I think all of that means it'd probably be a good idea to finally put that characterization for Batman to bed.

Let him actually have a positive impact on Gotham to the point it slowly starts to improve enough so he can take time away from it, and trust his allies enough to handle things while he goes on a mission with the JL. As for how he has the time to balance both, that really isn't an issue since all superheroes somehow have time to have their solo adventures and regularly be team members. It's just one of those things we have to not think too much about or we'll go insane.

[cam18]

Personally never Liked him on the JL....he just works infinitely better on a Street Level dealing with everything from the Joker to mob bosses like Rupert Thorne.

[SecretWarrior]

Geoff Johns didn't seem to like him, based on how much he clowned him in Justice League. I prefer when he's written as a more useful supporting character providing insight and information than barking orders.

[Stanlos]

The League is most interesting when there's tension with the government. Bring back President Luthor!

Just not justice leaguer luthor

[Stanlos]

TBF, Martian Manhunter alone makes most of the League redundant. He has flight, super strength, telepathic powers, can turn invisible and a Martian vision. But he has to be toned down so other League members can be useful.

But why would he need to be toned down? Isn't the League for threats that are bigger than the individual Leaguers?

[The True Detective]

Batman gets singled out because he's a non-powered hero who nevertheless has stronger plot armor than any other hero on the team and frequently undermines the upper tier heroes by being able to take them down in pretty stupid ways or punching way above his weight class against villains that challenge the others (like out-running Darkseid's Omega Beams, taking out 5 White Martians, taking out Cheetah in a single punch, judo throwing Kalibak, etc.). It's ridiculous, and not something we see happen with, say, Green Arrow.

Batman SHOULD be on the team, simply because the premise of the team is that they are DC's big guns and he is a founding member. Trying to go for deeper justifications is kind of pointless, like the bank roll thing. Due to who else is on the team, the JL has access to Kryptonioan, Thanagarian, Amazon and Atlantean technology, all of which are way more advanced than anything Bruce would have access to pay for. And if they need money, like people say, Superman can just casually whip up some diamonds, Aquaman has access to all sorts of sunken treasures and Wonder Woman can just sell one of her mom's vases or something. He's on the team because he genuinely likes and trusts them and believes in the work they are doing. Bat-God is unnecessary as well. It takes away his main appeal (that he is a vulnerable human) and only Morrison was able to sell it in a way that doesn't **** on the other heroes anyway. His deductive reasoning and the ability to get inside the heads of criminals (and it doesn't just have to be human ones) is more than enough for him to bring to the table.

Like in a Legion of Doom story, Superman knows how to get in Lex's head but is also too close to the Lex situation to be effective 100%, and Lex of course knows how to get in his. Batman being around to pick up the slack in such stories justifies Bruce being there.

Don't most heroes without powers have the strongest plot armor on their teams? This again is something he alone is usually singled out for. The Batfamily on Titans and Young Justice teams have way more plot armor than their meta teammates. No one calls them RobinGod, NightGod, etc.

I'm not talking about people who don't want him on the team for BatGod antics but because they don't think he contributes to the team *period* and thus in their opinions shouldn't be a member in the first place. Batfleck didn't make the other Leaguers look stupid or weak yet a lot of people ask why he's on the team and what use he could possibly bring.

Even completely removing BatGod from the equation the fact that he has no powers draws people's ire. It's fine for Green Arrow, the other Batfamily members, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Lex Luthor, etc but when it comes to Bruce Wayne everyone on a superhero team MUST have superpowers.

[Superfan90]

TBF, Martian Manhunter alone makes most of the League redundant. He has flight, super strength, telepathic powers, can turn invisible and a Martian vision. But he has to be toned down so other League members can be useful.

That's first I've heard about J'onn making League redundant.

[SiegePerilous02]

Don't most heroes without powers have the strongest plot armor on their teams? This again is something he alone is usually singled out for. The Batfamily on Titans and Young Justice teams have way more plot armor than their meta teammates. No one calls them RobinGod, NightGod, etc.

I'm not talking about people who don't want him on the team for BatGod antics but because they don't think he contributes to the team *period* and thus in their opinions shouldn't be a member in the first place. Batfleck didn't make the other Leaguers look stupid or weak yet a lot of people ask why he's on the team and what use he could possibly bring.

Even completely removing BatGod from the equation the fact that he has no powers draws people's ire. It's fine for Green Arrow, the other Batfamily members, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Lex Luthor, etc but when it comes to Bruce Wayne everyone on a superhero team MUST have superpowers.

RobinGod and NightGod are not things because Robin and Nightwing aren't depicted with the same bullshit levels of plot armor as their boss. He's more high profile and is on the more high profile team and has the most high profile example (Tower of Babel), so that catches all their attention. Nightwing on the Titans has one definitive stretch of stories (NTT) where he wasn't NightGod, and if he approaches that anywhere else, people don't read it as much as those old Titans issues or any of the Batman in JL stories. So if Batman is the brand, he catches the most heat because how he is used shapes how his family members are going to be used.

And I agree that the basic talking point of "Batman doesn't contribute to the team" is very stupid, and we probably have BatGod as backlash to that to overcompensate. I honestly don't know if Green Arrow fell under that same scrutiny back before Bat-God emerged. The only answer I can think of is that even back then, Batman was much more popular so maybe he always came to mind first when the question was asked?

[phonogram12]

But why would he need to be toned down? Isn't the League for threats that are bigger than the individual Leaguers?

Same reason Supes and Flash are toned down - if each were performing at their 100% in the JL books, storylines would be over in exactly one panel.

Even completely removing BatGod from the equation the fact that he has no powers draws people's ire. It's fine for Green Arrow, the other Batfamily members, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Lex Luthor, etc but when it comes to Bruce Wayne everyone on a superhero team MUST have superpowers.

This is true. If Lex Luthor can still function as Superman's #1 villain, Bats can certainly work alongside Supes and the like.

[Sutekh]

Again I have to ask why out of all the regular humans on superhero teams is Batman's usefulness singled out and questioned so much? There aren't threads like this for Black Widow and Hawkeye in the Marvel forum. Or the various Batfamily members on different teams. What does someone like Green Arrow provide to the League? Does he bring anything to the table that Bruce doesn't already bring?

That's my thought on it. If Captain America can be a perfectly valid Avenger, fighting alongside folks like Thor and Iron Man, then surely Batman alongside Superman and Wonder Woman is no different. Avoid the Batgod nonsense, and just let him be competent, and, yes, occasionally outclassed.

That's why they're a *team.* So that together they can handle things that most of them cannot alone, and sometimes playing a team sport means staying on your side of the field and trust that the other people will cover their areas.