X-Men '97: The Animated Series

[superjosh]

Anyway, how do we think Lifedeath, Part II is going to go? Is it going to be a breather from this event until the last moments when it happens in real time? I'm kinda thinking that's the best way. It'll give Storm determination to keep going. I hope they don't restore her powers right away.

There have been a lot of late 80s cues. The X-Men roster slowly dwindling down is basically the whole Dissolution and Rebirth arc that was kind of Claremont's endgame. Storm/Forge/The Adversary is of course Fall of the Mutants... so maybe all of these are converging with EoE and the cliffhanger will be Forge casting his spell with all the X-Men to stop the season's big bad. That big bad hasn't been determined yet, with possibilities being The Adversary, Sinister, Mastermold, Bastion....

The cliffhanger could also be their resurrection and a new beginning. Outback time!!! LOL

[salarta]

This is where you lose everyone. You're the only one that thinks it's disrespectful or dumb when it's literally a case of "I don't like it".

I didn't know you represent everyone. Good to know.

You can be upset for yourself as a fan, but you turn it into some kind of major slight towards... I don't even know. The storytellers have NO OBLIGATION to include anyone or anything that they do not want to include. The episode still told a story that was complete.

Keep in mind, not everyone has even read EoE. There are chunks of years that I haven't read. These stories are for anyone that wants to watch and your rules are so limiting.

I'm not turning it into anything. I'm stating what it actually is. Do you think I would have such strong emotions if I didn't have good cause? Do you think fans across the web, fans I've never talked to and who don't know me, would feel the same way if we didn't all commonly see it as a slight?

You want to believe it's fine because you like what's being made, and don't care how others feel and how poor decisions affect people that aren't you.

It's the reach on the platform that will go to millions of viewers and how Marvel responds to this in the movies and the comics and further adaptations regarding this story. Hopefully they'll revamp the other cartoons.

Echoing this.

I will say that if I thought this cartoon was a complete one-off where these poor decisions would remain in isolation and future content would do the right thing, I wouldn't be complaining quite as much.

The fact of the matter is, this is clearly a blueprint for future work. The refusal to acknowledge Lorna here, combined with the comics not only ignoring her stake in Genosha for over 15 years but practically retconning it with how she was most recently depicted on Genosha, means this part of her character is at risk.

Lorna has already lost a **** ton over time. She's lost being acknowledged as the second woman to join the X-Men. She's lost acknowledgment that she's been around since 1968. She lost being treated with a feminist approach in favor of "lol Havok's weak supporting character gf." She used to be Jean's first and closest female friend, before she was separated so far from Jean that it took literal decades before they got to have any sort of real relationship again (in Duggan's run). She lost even being considered a meaningful X-woman. I'm not willing to be quiet when the most important moment in the character's history is about to be ripped away because nostalgia-obsessed assholes don't respect her.

I think the takeaway here is that Genosha is important to Polaris, but Polaris isn’t important or integral to the Genosha storyline at all.

It's more accurate to say Polaris is supposed to be integral to the Genosha storyline, but Beau and his people did the typical thing nostalgia-based assholes do of deciding she doesn't "deserve" such big stories and handing them off to other characters they respect more.

[From The Shadows]

Not that I don't feel for Lorna fans but since the original TAS they have always retconned stories and gave them to other characters. There are some fans that saw the cartoons before they actually read the comics. So, it might not matter to them as much. I didn't like the original. Thought the animation and VA was awful. This is much better quality. But I do think the criticism of those who are disappointed is weird. I mean this is a place where someone is always disappointed at something. Like a comic for example. The cartoons shouldn't be exempt.

[superjosh]

I didn't know you represent everyone. Good to know.

I guess I meant everyone rational.

I'm not turning it into anything. I'm stating what it actually is. Do you think I would have such strong emotions if I didn't have good cause? Do you think fans across the web, fans I've never talked to and who don't know me, would feel the same way if we didn't all commonly see it as a slight?

You want to believe it's fine because you like what's being made, and don't care how others feel and how poor decisions affect people that aren't you.

You are VERY welcome to feel how you feel. And yes one can have strong emotions WITHOUT just cause. Being as angry as you are isn't proof of any wrongdoing. I am sorry that Lorna has not as of yet been involved with this storyline, but it is no reason to call everyone a**holes and deem it some systematic and calculated dismissal of her character.

She's just not the focus of this series and that's it. There's no conspiracy, no intentional attempt to ignore her... she's just not a part of it.

It's more accurate to say Polaris is supposed to be integral to the Genosha storyline, but Beau and his people did the typical thing nostalgia-based assholes do of deciding she doesn't "deserve" such big stories and handing them off to other characters they respect more.

I 100% agree with Tank on this one. EoE is very important to Lorna's story, but hers was not as integral to EoE. Again, the original storyline went fine without her for over a year. I don't know when Morrison made the decision to include her into the story starting with issue 132, but maybe you can enlighten me on that.

I'm curious, I haven't read all your posts, but where is your anger regarding Cassandra Nova not being included? Because I feel the most significant players in EoE are Cassandra, Charles, Magneto (in a sort of phantom way at first), Genosha as a concept, and then the rest of the team.

[Sammael]

It would have been very easy to avoid this kind of discussion if Beau and his people had simply done the most basic of basics in respecting the essentials when adapting this story.

Instead of deciding to exclude important elements out of personal bias against those elements.

If you want someone to blame, blame them. They’re the ones who decided their idea of enjoyment by excluding these elements mattered more than the the story they’re supposed to be telling for the enjoyment of everyone.

I'm going to give you some general advice that will likely be taken as a personal attack. So be it.

You need to drop that attitude. You are literally part of .2% of the human species that has watched this episode and been annoyed and dissatisfied.

Your demand for perfect parity with past continuity with previous series or x comics will lead to escalating bitterness and irritation across your entire life. And most importantly, you will have earned that bitterness and don't deserve better so long as you keep that attitude.

[superjosh]

Your demand for perfect parity with past continuity with previous series or x comics will lead to escalating bitterness and irritation across your entire life. And most importantly, you will have earned that bitterness and don't deserve better so long as you keep that attitude.

It's not even perfect parity that's important. It's parity with respect to one singular fictional character in a whole universe. Nothing and no one else comes close to mattering. That's called obsession and it's going to eat them alive.

[Wiccan]

I understand the frustration from Lorna fans. But unfortunately I think that we're just gonna have to accept that, if a character isn't part of the main cast, they're most likely not gonna be getting much if any focus in general, regardless of how big of a role they played in the source material. It was the same with Inferno.

The cartoon is an adaptation and much like movies it's more often than not gonna focus on the characters already established unless they don't find a way to do it without it or the writer is particularly interested on that character. Like Ultron without Hank Pym and so many other big changes in the MCU.

[Confuzzled]

What's the difference between Krakoa and Genosha? He was vehemently opposed to Krakoa as a safe space. Why the change of heart?

Yeah, I mean the man is crazy talented but none of these stories would be possible without the pre-existing comics. Him borrowing elements from HoX like the Council, the Gala, how a thriving mutant nation looks (Genosha's culture wasn't quite explored like Krakoa's) etc. while simultaneously dunking on the era and Hickman on social media is NOT a good look.

[Confuzzled]

I understand the frustration from Lorna fans. But unfortunately I think that we're just gonna have to accept that, if a character isn't part of the main cast, they're most likely not gonna be getting much if any focus in general, regardless of how big of a role they played in the source material. It was the same with Inferno.

The cartoon is an adaptation and much like movies it's more often than not gonna focus on the characters already established unless they don't find a way to do it without it or the writer is particularly interested on that character. Like Ultron without Hank Pym and so many other big changes in the MCU.

Exactly. When you choose to be a fan of a character who doesn't make the cut of the 15 most popular X-Men, this is something you always have to accept will happen (and yes, the Top 15 isn't permanent and even they aren't safe from this treatment)

[Sammael]

It's not even perfect parity that's important. It's parity with respect to one singular fictional character in a whole universe. Nothing and no one else comes close to mattering. That's called obsession and it's going to eat them alive.

I can't help to say to such people yearning for their favorites to get some love... get in line.

Unless your favorite was wolverine or magneto, it's been rough in tv series and movies.

X men 97 has done more than most x iterations in trying to expand outward and showcase more than just wolverine/goku.

I was a long time storm fan and she was shortchanged in movies and animation before this series. And I'm still waiting for iceman to get more love.

[Refrax5]

I can't help to say to such people yearning for their favorites to get some love... get in line.

Unless your favorite was wolverine or magneto, it's been rough in tv series and movies.

X men 97 has done more than most x iterations in trying to expand outward and showcase more than just wolverine/goku.

I was a long time storm fan and she was shortchanged in movies and animation before this series. And I'm still waiting for iceman to get more love.

Yep. If I had it my way, Havok, Nightcrawler, Warpath and Morph would be be getting tons of screentime and elevated to the A-list. But I'm also not expecting that or angry that it isn't happening. Some fans have an intense sense of entitlement about this stuff.

[superjosh]

Exactly. When you choose to be a fan of a character who doesn't make the cut of the 15 most popular X-Men, this is something you always have to accept will happen (and yes, the Top 15 isn't permanent and even they aren't safe from this treatment)

Completely! The whole Blue and Gold team have been the mainstays for decades and none of them are going anywhere. Add in Mags, Kitty, Kurt, and Emma and your next favs are just sh**-out-of-luck! Kitty fans are the real sufferers to be honest lol.

Yep. If I had it my way, Havok, Nightcrawler, Warpath and Morph would be be getting tons of screentime and elevated to the A-list. But I'm also not expecting that or angry that it isn't happening. Some fans have an intense sense of entitlement about this stuff.

Entitlement is THE KEY word.

[Exodus]

How can the x-men recover from this? Cyclops speech already showed so much hurt and rightful anger.

I hope there will be fundamental changes coming going forward. New team member, new costumes, and maybe even a breaking away from Xavier’s dream for a few X-Men members.

This episode was really disturbing. Very well done. But extremely disturbing. Magneto speaking German to the little mutant broke my heart.

[Winter_fury]

So where are All the Morrison and Hickman haters at? Most influential x-writers after Claremont .

[Jack The Tripper]

Anyway, how do we think Lifedeath, Part II is going to go? Is it going to be a breather from this event until the last moments when it happens in real time? I'm kinda thinking that's the best way. It'll give Storm determination to keep going. I hope they don't restore her powers right away.

There have been a lot of late 80s cues. The X-Men roster slowly dwindling down is basically the whole Dissolution and Rebirth arc that was kind of Claremont's endgame. Storm/Forge/The Adversary is of course Fall of the Mutants... so maybe all of these are converging with EoE and the cliffhanger will be Forge casting his spell with all the X-Men to stop the season's big bad. That big bad hasn't been determined yet, with possibilities being The Adversary, Sinister, Mastermold, Bastion....

The cliffhanger could also be their resurrection and a new beginning. Outback time!!! LOL

I think Lifedeath 2 is going to have an A story about Storm, and B story about the X-Men mourning Genosha and Gambit (and Magneto if he’s actually dead) - two plots about grief and ‘lifedeath’