X-Men '97: The Animated Series

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

There is no "divide". Talking about the U.S., there is 49% of the voting populace and further about 35% of the whole population that is super-focused on hurting people that are not hetero white males. 35%.

Why is that pitched as a "divide?" Because the media pays special privilege to the voices of people who want to act like that.

What needs to happen is a collective, "no, **** you, your 35% is not God. Some shows will have gay/black/etc folk. Shut up and deal with it."

Anything else is just caping for white supremacy or worshiping power.

If it was Mexican folks who had a problem with all other people, we wouldn't be expected to kowtow to ridiculous hateful behavior, but because the hate is coming from who it's coming from, people are expected to bow to it. Nah. Super nah.

[Maine Starfish]

bigotry and hate speech are not valid opposing views or just the 'other side' and people are not required to be nice and polite in response to bigotry and hate speech

if bigots don't like people being mean to them, then it's on them to stop being hateful

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

bigotry and hate speech are not valid opposing views or just the 'other side' and people are not required to be nice and polite in response to bigotry and hate speech

if bigots don't like people being mean to them, then it's on them to stop being hateful

Preach.

PREACH.

[ChronoRogue]

There is no "divide". Talking about the U.S., there is 49% of the voting populace and further about 35% of the whole population that is super-focused on hurting people that are not hetero white males. 35%.

Why is that pitched as a "divide?" Because the media pays special privilege to the voices of people who want to act like that.

What needs to happen is a collective, "no, **** you, your 35% is not God. Some shows will have gay/black/etc folk. Shut up and deal with it."

Anything else is just caping for white supremacy or worshiping power.

If it was Mexican folks who had a problem with all other people, we wouldn't be expected to kowto to ridiculous hateful behavior, but because the hate is coming from who it's coming from, people are expected to bow to it. Nah. Super nah.

If it sounds like I'm sanitizing the words, that is on purpose. Of course I don't agree with any hateful rhetoric, but you need to not weaponize your words or you just shut the other person down from listening completely. They enter defense or fight mode, which defeats the purpose of communicating in the first place.

I work in mental health, I talk to many many people who holds different views and beliefs from me. My job isn't to say "your views are stupid, illogical and wrong" and expect them to change like that. No one wants to hear that and no one is going to try to change like that. You need to open them up with some civility and kindness first, before you challenge any beliefs later down the line. And many people that go into those channels aren't even there mostly willing court-ordered but can still change if you put the work into it.

It's a looong process, but undoing decades of prejudice and discrimination doesn't happen in one conversation. Or even generations, as many countries have shown. It's a painful and awkward process.

bigotry and hate speech are not valid opposing views or just the 'other side' and people are not required to be nice and polite in response to bigotry and hate speech

if bigots don't like people being mean to them, then it's on them to stop being hateful

No, people are not required to be polite if they're facing hate-speech or feel unsafe.

You are completely free to defend yourself if you feel threatened and I myself wouldn't want to just sit there are let someone be hateful to my face either. Victims of prejudice are not robots, they're human and will respond if you hurt them emotionally or physically.

All I'm saying is with communication channels, like social media or forums, it's usually not constructive to fight hate with hate. This is a medium where you can regulate and control what you see, thus control your actions better. It's not the best way to communicate, but at least it's one of the least dangerous if you want to share thoughts and feelings. If anywhere else, it's here we should be trying to bridge the gap better and not respond in kind.

[Rift]

Lol at these white supremacist comments. There is no "tolerating" people who would see people like you banned from media presence, or what they really want...for you to be hanged. Some of yall literally just watch too many cartoons.

Say what you *really* want...for certain types of people to have certain special status to hurt others without repercussion, with the minority just taking "gracefully" because they are the minority. The worship of power, sycophantry, is noxious.

Are you including me here? Because if it means anything to the discussion, I am white, but I'm also Mediterranean, ethnically Jewish and part Asian. And bisexual, for that matter.

As I said in my earlier post, you shouldn't tolerate people who are out to actually harm you. In fact, you should consider cutting certain people out of your life if they make you so uncomfortable. But we're not talking about kowtowing to malicious people, or saying that certain people need to shut up and let others get what they want. There's a difference between listening to people, and accepting their hate. We're talking about being empathetic and not overly judgmental to others, because fighting hate with hate doesn't help if you're trying to seek change.

[Nyssane]

bigotry and hate speech are not valid opposing views or just the 'other side' and people are not required to be nice and polite in response to bigotry and hate speech

if bigots don't like people being mean to them, then it's on them to stop being hateful

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

If it sounds like I'm sanitizing the words, that is on purpose. Of course I don't agree with any hateful rhetoric, but you need to not weaponize your words or you just shut the other person down from listening completely. They enter defense or fight mode, which defeats the purpose of communicating in the first place.

I work in mental health, I talk to many many people who holds different views and beliefs from me. My job isn't to say "your views are stupid, illogical and wrong" and expect them to change like that. No one wants to hear that and no one is going to try to change like that. You need to open them up with some civility and kindness first, before you challenge any beliefs later down the line. And many people that go into those channels aren't even there mostly willing court-ordered but can still change if you put the work into it.

It's a looong process, but undoing decades of prejudice and discrimination doesn't happen in one conversation. Or even generations, as many countries have shown. It's a painful and awkward process.



No, people are not required to be polite if they're facing hate-speech or feel unsafe.

You are completely free to defend yourself if you feel threatened and I myself wouldn't want to just sit there are let someone be hateful to my face either. Victims of prejudice are not robots, they're human and will respond if you hurt them emotionally or physically.

All I'm saying is with communication channels, like social media or forums, it's usually not constructive to fight hate with hate. This is a medium where you can regulate and control what you see, thus control your actions better. It's not the best way to communicate, but at least it's one of the least dangerous if you want to share thoughts and feelings. If anywhere else, it's here we should be trying to bridge the gap better and not respond in kind.

The only way people turn from hate is exposure to other groups. That's the exact point of them saying, "don't show these people as humans in media."

"Everything is woke" people will not one day decide not to hate gay people. They are expressly and explicitly against the idea of people they dont like being seen publicly. It is wrong to misconstrue their position as anything else.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Are you including me here? Because if it means anything to the discussion, I am white, but I'm also Mediterranean, ethnically Jewish and part Asian. And bisexual, for that matter.

As I said in my earlier post, you shouldn't tolerate people who are out to actually harm you. In fact, you should consider cutting certain people out of your life if they make you so uncomfortable. But we're not talking about kowtowing to malicious people, or saying that certain people need to shut up and let others get what they want. There's a difference between listening to people, and accepting their hate. We're talking about being empathetic and not overly judgmental to others, because fighting hate with hate doesn't help if you're trying to seek change.

You are, at best, ignorantly misconstruing the situation. No one is "fighting hate with hate," and there is no 'empathizing' with that. Here let me try:

"Oh, you are scared that this male person liking another male person on TV will make you gay. That's really scary, I get it."

The above is nonsense. That's not even.how the X-Men operate. The way to turn people away from hate who are not staunchly determined to be hateful is simply to show them other people. Folks shouting down the idea of "others" existing in media are taking a deliberate anti stake. A false equivalency between opinions of hate and people who simply want to exist side-by-side is ignorant, at best, but it seems outright malicious.

The entire point of pushing the term 'woke' is an effort to prevent 'others' from being shown as everyday people. The effort is intended to limit exposure. If you let Jackie Robinson play baseball, all of a sudden people will start to see him as equal to a white man. It is all about minimalizing exposure to the idea that the 'others' are just people, the same as straight white people.

[ChronoRogue]

The only way people turn from hate is exposure to other groups. That's the exact point of them saying, "don't show these people as humans in media."

"Everything is woke" people will not one day decide not to hate gay people. They are expressly and explicitly against the idea of people they dont like being seen publicly. It is wrong to misconstrue their position as anything else.

Oh exposure is definitely a good thing I think, I agree. If I didn't make my stance clear, despite me saying that I think we shouldn't aggressively shut down opposing view points with more hate, I still stand that Morph is good representation in this show.

As for changing attitudes, I think right now the biggest conflict with media is it's just a bunch of yelling at each other without much listening going around. I'm not saying you should take anything anyone hateful says to heart or entertain ideas about disenfranchising minorities, but start to think about why they have these thoughts. Where are these feelings coming from? Who is spreading these attitudes and what do they gain from it? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there are reasons for certain entities to want to divide, distract a community or society through societal discourse. The average person probably doesn't think about that much, but it's why patterns like this continue to persist despite multiple civil rights movements.

There are lot of cycles of abuse that occur because of perpetuating aggression, trauma and lack of real communication. (and I don't mean yelling at each other)

[Android 17]

bigotry and hate speech are not valid opposing views or just the 'other side' and people are not required to be nice and polite in response to bigotry and hate speech

if bigots don't like people being mean to them, then it's on them to stop being hateful

Thank you a million times.

Can't believe I read some of these responses in an X-MEN thread.

[ChronoRogue]

Thank you a million times.

Can't believe I read some of these responses in an X-MEN thread.

Why would you be surprised? The X-Men's tagline is to protect a world that hates and fears them.

The X-Men are always prepared to throw down with extremists, but that's not what is going to win them the war. It's always been talk softly but carry a big stick. (despite writers loving their extinction story-lines)

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Oh exposure is definitely a good thing I think, I agree. If I didn't make my stance clear, despite me saying that I think we shouldn't aggressively shut down opposing view points with more hate, I still stand that Morph is good representation in this show.

As for changing attitudes, I think right now the biggest conflict with media is it's just a bunch of yelling at each other without much listening going around. I'm not saying you should take anything anyone hateful says to heart or entertain ideas about disenfranchising minorities, but start to think about why they have these thoughts. Where are these feelings coming from? Who is spreading these attitudes and what do they gain from it? I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but there are reasons for certain entities to want to divide, distract a community or society through societal discourse. The average person probably doesn't think about that much, but it's why patterns like this continue to persist despite multiple civil rights movements.

There are lot of cycles of abuse that occur because of perpetuating aggression and lack of real communication. (and I don't mean yelling at each other)

It is not a lack of communication. If you want hate gone, what you do is press on with exhibiting that the big scary non-humans Fox News told you to be scared of are just people.

You are putting an onus on "others", implying that they just aren't listening hard enough to misunderstood hateful folk. That's nonsense, and the only reason serious people are forced to engage with it is that moneyed groups like the Koch Brothers and the Federalist Society are interested in pushing that message.

There is no "listening" to the KKK. They want what they want, and they have Harlan Crows with all the money in the world behind them to push messaging.

What people who don't hate others should do is carry on making their shows with Morph-type people in them and not allow their voices to be shouted down by folks who want to appease KKK-esque people in the hope that they will just suddenly start being nice if gay et cetera people will just stop appearing on the screen.

[Rift]

You are, at best, ignorantly misconstruing the situation. No one is "fighting hate with hate," and there is no 'empathizing' with that. Here let me try:

"Oh, you are scared that this male person liking another male person on TV will make you gay. That's really scary, I get it."

The above is nonsense. That's not even.how the X-Men operate. The way to turn people away from hate who are not staunchly determined to be hateful is simply to show them other people. Folks shouting down the idea of "others" existing in media are taking a deliberate anti stake. A false equivalency between opinions of hate and people who simply want to exist side-by-side is ignorant, at best, but it seems outright malicious.

The entire point of pushing the term 'woke' is an effort to prevent 'others' from being shown as everyday people. The effort is intended to limit exposure. If you let Jackie Robinson play baseball, all of a sudden people will start to see him as equal to a white man. It is all about minimalizing exposure to the idea that the 'others' are just people, the same as straight white people.

I said in my very first post that you shouldn't put up with hate. I labeled introducing diverse voices as progress. I never denied the existence of bigots, bad actors or anything. I never said that we should stop showing things outside of white heteronormativity. I know, being mean to bigots is not as bad as actual racism and prejudice. All I said was that you shouldn't assume the worst of others, and that people aren't necessarily bad when we assume so, and it's good to keep an open mind. It's about trying to understand them, not trying to agree with them.

The fact that you started accusing others of making white supremacists comments, then generalized our opinions and lumped them in bad rhetoric is part of my point. Like ChronoRogue has been trying to communicate with you, show they understand and agree with many of your positions, and try to provide nuance while still respecting your views. I feel like you've misconstrued a few comments and assumed the worst of them.

Like how in your post, you said this

There is no "listening" to the KKK. They want what they want, and they have Harlan Crows with all the money in the world behind them to push messaging.

What people who don't hate others should do is carry on making their shows with Morph-type people in them and not allow their voices to be shouted down by folks who want to appease KKK-esque people in the hope that they will just suddenly start being nice if gay et cetera people will just stop appearing on the screen.

You're immediately jumping to the most extreme argument and acting like that's what we're talking about. You're strawmanning the issue and missing the point of the message.

[ChronoRogue]

It is not a lack of communication. If you want hate gone, what you do is press on with exhibiting that the big scary non-humans Fox News told you to be scared of are just people.

You are putting an onus on "others", implying that they just aren't listening hard enough to misunderstood hateful folk. That's nonsense, and the only reason serious people are forced to engage with it is that moneyed groups like the Koch Brothers and the Federalist Society are interested in pushing that message.

There is no "listening" to the KKK. They want what they want, and they have Harlan Crows with all the money in the world behind them to push messaging.

What people who don't hate others should do is carry on making their shows with Morph-type people in them and not allow their voices to be shouted down by folks who want to appease KKK-esque people in the hope that they will just suddenly start being nice if gay et cetera people will just stop appearing on the screen.

A lack of communication is a factor, but not the only one. Again, there are layers to patterns of abuse, trauma and scape-goating. Propaganda and media presence are proponents as well, yes, but that's not the only reason people latch onto those concepts of wanting to "other" people.

As for onus, I do think people in general need to listen to each other better. Not just to "misunderstood hateful" folk, but in general with family, friends and yourself. Understanding yourself and the people around are good for mental health and growth. It should be an on-going goal for everyone to try to self-reflect more and try to understand what causes behaviors, instead of just focusing on the actions themselves. But is it your responsibility to change other people? No, everyone can only control themselves.

I'm just arguing that if you want to stop a cycle of abuse how you engage in communication is important. As for broader topics like hate-groups, those should be legal matters. We should be aware of them and the harmful potential they have and could cause yes, but a lot of how those groups gain power is from disenfranchised people, toxic ways people communicate with each other and broader issues with the structure of society ranging from topics like poverty, sociocultural stressors and empowerment.

I mean even X-Men spells it out a lot of time, just look at a character like Graydon Creed. It's an extreme, but it's not a unique story. How many times have lawmakers or people in positions of power been caught doing the exact thing they protest about? There are tons of examples there.

Again, I think Morph is good for the show, I just don't advocate fighting fire with fire here.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

I said in my very first post that you shouldn't put up with hate. I labeled introducing diverse voices as progress. I never denied the existence of bigots, bad actors or anything. I never said that we should stop showing things outside of white heteronormativity. I know, being mean to bigots is not as bad as actual racism and prejudice. All I said was that you shouldn't assume the worst of others, and that people aren't necessarily bad when we assume so, and it's good to keep an open mind. It's about trying to understand them, not trying to agree with them.

The fact that you started accusing others of making white supremacists comments, then generalized our opinions and lumped them in bad rhetoric is part of my point. Like ChronoRogue has been trying to communicate with you, show they understand and agree with many of your positions, and try to provide nuance while still respecting your views. I feel like you've misconstrued a few comments and assumed the worst of them.

Like how in your post, you said this


You're immediately jumping to the most extreme argument and acting like that's what we're talking about. You're strawmanning the issue and missing the point of the message.

The point of the message is "a significant portion of people who don't want non-binary et cetera on TV will suddenly be nice if you aren't terse with them and treat their point of view as if it is inocuous", yes?

I disagree. Further, that attitude is dangerous for everyone who can't pass for non-woke. The people we are talking about are hateful with intent. They are saying not to show 'others' on TV because they do not want there to be a counter-message to "gay = bad."