X-Men '97: The Animated Series

[PolarIceFire]

NGL, even though my hopes were kinda dashed by not seeing at least 1 of my MOST WANTED:

POLARis, ICEman, & Havok (3's co. ), Sunfire & Dazzler, Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver, or Moonstar & Rictor... Synch, Hellion, Dust, etc., the list goes on & on...

🙏

there were, of course, things that I saw which I liked. It just takes me a li'l time to come around, I guess, when I look forward to something so, only to feel...

left out.

Also, me wanting to keep somewhat of a lower profile these days, combined with this thread's overt contentiousness... has kept me at bay. I'm just tired, frankly, of all the cynicism... it's EXHAUSTING! And I have been enjoying getting back to real life more, besides, so will definitely be continuing to do that.

BUT, I do have reason 2 hang on to my many, curated wishes, *I think*...

... COMMISSION - havok, polaris e iceman #xmen, by rodrigo - COMMISSIONS OPEN
@ro_asif

that I prefer to keep to myself, for now. The first was random & I... am pretty distrustful, when it comes to people's motives. I really, REALLY want to believe it's a good thing, a GREAT thing... IDK, thinking maybe I should just reach out & ask, we'll see. Sometimes it is better, y'know, to just rip that band-aid right off. The other was more specific, *see* above, but anonymous. Which has happened more than a few times before, and I have no way of knowing, 'til if & when... it manifests, and comes to pass. And I'm not complaining, at ALL, as I consider myself VERY lucky when it comes to pet characters in the new era. It's the best they've ever been treated all together as a whole, at the same time.

To leave on a cheeky note, tho...

WHEN?! 😋🤤

[Grunty]

Not to downplay Jean Grey's importance in the X-men publishing history and no offense towards all her fans from the comics who like her for a combination of qualities beyond those mentioned below, but the way it seems to me she doesn't hold nearly as much pull or popularity to the general X-men fanbase outside the comics or even in them.

General pop culture awareness of the character seems to be at best limited to these 4 elements.
1. Being one of the original X-men and a telekinetic.
2. The relationship conflict between Cyclops and Wolverine over her.
3. Becomming super powerfull but also out of control because of the Phoenix Force.
4. Dying to stop the Phoenix Force.

Especialy point 2-4 are apparently overshadowing not only anything else done with the character before, but even what will be done with her afterwards. So even when someone tries to do anything else with her, it just gets lost to memory osmsis.

It's no suprise then that it's basicly all her character was used or remembered for in the various adapations over the years.
X-men TAS, the first X-men trilogy of movies (X-men, X-men United, X-men the Last Stand), Wolverine and the X-men, the X-men reboot triology of movies (First Class, Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix) and while Evolution left out the Wolverine thing (thankfully in my opinion), even that show was hinting at Dark Phoenix eventualy showing up in it's "things to come" segment in the last episode.

As cruel as it sounds, to most people aware of the X-men, the character appears to have a definitive end point unlike most other characters.
She has one big role and once that has fullfilled it, nobody seems to know what to do with her anymore but make her more powerfull, which isn't really helping her personality and story wise.

Even most of the comic writers over the years when she is alive, appear unable to find anything else to do with her beyond those 4 points and those who DO try to do something different with her again can't seem to make it stick, as the next writer is sure to forget about it again and downgrade her to those 4 points.

Claremeont made her super powerfull with the Phoenix Force and ultimately gave her one of the most memorable tragic deaths in X-men history, but he also doomed her to be forever restricted to it.

Considering that the Dark Phoenix storyline was allready done with Jean Grey in X-men TAS, she is now basicly in a "post scriptum" state in this incarnation. So it really might be an uphill battle for the writers to get her over with a new or the old viewership who could have little expectations or interest in the character.

[PolarIceFire]

[jwatson]

Not to downplay Jean Grey's importance in the X-men publishing history and no offense towards all her fans from the comics who like her for a combination of qualities beyond those mentioned below, but the way it seems to me she doesn't hold nearly as much pull or popularity to the general X-men fanbase outside the comics or even in them.

General pop culture awareness of the character seems to be at best limited to these 4 elements.
1. Being one of the original X-men and a telekinetic.
2. The relationship conflict between Cyclops and Wolverine over her.
3. Becomming super powerfull but also out of control because of the Phoenix Force.
4. Dying to stop the Phoenix Force.

Especialy point 2-4 are apparently overshadowing not only anything else done with the character before, but even what will be done with her afterwards. So even when someone tries to do anything else with her, it just gets lost to memory osmsis.

It's no suprise then that it's basicly all her character was used or remembered for in the various adapations over the years.
X-men TAS, the first X-men trilogy of movies (X-men, X-men United, X-men the Last Stand), Wolverine and the X-men, the X-men reboot triology of movies (First Class, Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix) and while Evolution left out the Wolverine thing (thankfully in my opinion), even that show was hinting at Dark Phoenix eventualy showing up in it's "things to come" segment in the last episode.

As cruel as it sounds, to most people aware of the X-men, the character appears to have a definitive end point unlike most other characters.
She has one big role and once that has fullfilled it, nobody seems to know what to do with her anymore but make her more powerfull, which isn't really helping her personality and story wise.

Even most of the comic writers over the years when she is alive, appear unable to find anything else to do with her beyond those 4 points and those who DO try to do something different with her again can't seem to make it stick, as the next writer is sure to forget about it again and downgrade her to those 4 points.

Claremeont made her super powerfull with the Phoenix Force and ultimately gave her one of the most memorable tragic deaths in X-men history, but he also doomed her to be forever restricted to it.

Considering that the Dark Phoenix storyline was allready done with Jean Grey in X-men TAS, she is now basicly in a "post scriptum" state in this incarnation. So it really might be an uphill battle for the writers to get her over with a new or the old viewership who could have little expectations or interest in the character.

I think the real problem is writers don't like to write jean they like to write the tension she creates. How many stories has it been everytime she was starting to exhibit power they brought her back down to earth or she lost her powers or she died. Perhaps that is linked to the phoenix and more writers prefer to write it than her. Like for instance bendis run for all it's faults he did write a great Jean because he wrote jean, he wanted to tell stories about Jean and how powerful she is and the strength of her character and until she gets that again no amount of power ups or phoenix will matter because when the tension is gone they will rub her out. Maybe this Beau guy can make it so others see her differently as i'm sure the show also left an impression but perhaps that means it can create a new one but the comics in of themselves need to help. Jean help created the x-men yes, but is that really where the character could or can be doing the most good, or expressing herself the most. I don't think so, which is why it still bothers me they had her give up her council seat.

[PolarIceFire]

https://marvelanimated.fandom.com/wi...Yost_Universe)

In one possible future, Dazzler was killed when Phoenix-possessed Stepford Cuckoos attacked the nation. She was with Synch and M when she died. Her death was remembered by Polaris.

[jwatson]

Oh and it also hurt they kept her dead so long. If you search almost any telephatic bio when they want to compare strength it is always "the likes of charles xavier and emma frost."

[Grunty]

Oh and it also hurt they kept her dead so long. If you search almost any telephatic bio when they want to compare strength it is always "the likes of charles xavier and emma frost."

Doesn't help that her great feats of power seem to often get thought to be the result of the phoenix force only, not her own. So of course people use characters as baseline who are remarked as powerfull without such upgrades via a big flaming cosmic bird thingy in their most famous story.

But true, being famously dead for longer spans of time, can lead people to use characters as comparison who are more known as active.

As mentioned, Claremeont both elevated and doomed her at the same time with that upgrade.

[Dipter]

Is it so important for Jean to be viewed as the most powerful telepath? There's a lot of them, let the others have some breathing room

[jwatson]

Doesn't help that her great feats of power seem to often get thought to be the result of the phoenix force only, not her own. So of course people use characters as baseline who are remarked as remarkable, but didn't get a sudden power surge via a big flaming cosmic bird thingy in their most famous story.

But true, being famously dead for longer spans of time, can lead people to use characters as comparison who are more known as active.

As mentioned Claremeont both elevated and doomed her at the same time with that upgrade.

i think it's lack of creativity not jean posessing the phoenix that doomed her. Because the fans imo want to see the next level. I know i was shocked back when all of a sudden she was hit with the physic flash at the cabin in arkansas and all of a sudden losing her powers. Before that it seemed like the story was going somewhere she was going to get there on her own because phoenix wasn't there, she was on the trajectory to claiming that identity for herself and growing beyond it and wham, imo from what i read of his run it was morrison who to me made the phoenix into the parasite it was today. Just the idea of using words like host for jean, having it speak in a differnt voice, the exorcist like moments of jean having her eyes closed and professor taking to it while the spoons spinned around. What i read of it was turning the xmen inside out and that's how i knew it wasn't for me. I know some say the phoenix was a parasite in claremont story but i just can't ascribe to that. Jean fought, and she fought hard and she embraced and she embraced hard and i tend to believe the characters when written well and her friends weren't fighting for her because there was nothing to save, they were fighting for her because she was fighting for them. The phoenix didn't corrupt Jean and Jean didn't corrupt the phoenix, man corrupted both and that's the real truth of that story.

[jwatson]

Is it so important for Jean to be viewed as the most powerful telepath? There's a lot of them, let the others have some breathing room

Well it is suppose to be her primary power and she is suppose to be an omega of it so while she doesn't need to be the most powerful there are creative ways to make her the most expansive at it and to seperate her from those who do have limited potential in the field.

[Tank]

Is it so important for Jean to be viewed as the most powerful telepath? There's a lot of them, let the others have some breathing room

The others had plenty of breathing room. While Jean was dead Emma for example was shoe horned into all the telepathic roles. We had to suffer thru 10 years without Jean so when one of the telepaths is taken off the board for 10 years then you may have a point. U til then Jean neede to be built up to make up for lost time.

[Tank]

Not to downplay Jean Grey's importance in the X-men publishing history and no offense towards all her fans from the comics who like her for a combination of qualities beyond those mentioned below, but the way it seems to me she doesn't hold nearly as much pull or popularity to the general X-men fanbase outside the comics or even in them.

General pop culture awareness of the character seems to be at best limited to these 4 elements.
1. Being one of the original X-men and a telekinetic.
2. The relationship conflict between Cyclops and Wolverine over her.
3. Becomming super powerfull but also out of control because of the Phoenix Force.
4. Dying to stop the Phoenix Force.

Especialy point 2-4 are apparently overshadowing not only anything else done with the character before, but even what will be done with her afterwards. So even when someone tries to do anything else with her, it just gets lost to memory osmsis.

It's no suprise then that it's basicly all her character was used or remembered for in the various adapations over the years.
X-men TAS, the first X-men trilogy of movies (X-men, X-men United, X-men the Last Stand), Wolverine and the X-men, the X-men reboot triology of movies (First Class, Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix) and while Evolution left out the Wolverine thing (thankfully in my opinion), even that show was hinting at Dark Phoenix eventualy showing up in it's "things to come" segment in the last episode.

As cruel as it sounds, to most people aware of the X-men, the character appears to have a definitive end point unlike most other characters.
She has one big role and once that has fullfilled it, nobody seems to know what to do with her anymore but make her more powerfull, which isn't really helping her personality and story wise.

Even most of the comic writers over the years when she is alive, appear unable to find anything else to do with her beyond those 4 points and those who DO try to do something different with her again can't seem to make it stick, as the next writer is sure to forget about it again and downgrade her to those 4 points.

Claremeont made her super powerfull with the Phoenix Force and ultimately gave her one of the most memorable tragic deaths in X-men history, but he also doomed her to be forever restricted to it.

Considering that the Dark Phoenix storyline was allready done with Jean Grey in X-men TAS, she is now basicly in a "post scriptum" state in this incarnation. So it really might be an uphill battle for the writers to get her over with a new or the old viewership who could have little expectations or interest in the character.

It’s all a matter of how you frame it. You just listed some of her characteristics and most popular stories/beats and then declare that it’s detrimental because that’s all the general public knows her for. Well all the Xmen can be broken down to these various traits and story beats. The key is they are known to the public compared to some d-list character.

I’ll use Cyclops as an example. The general public knows Cyclops as just the leader, boy scout and in a love triangle as well with Jean and Wolverine. Those are what he’s known for. Doesn’t limit him or Jean any less. It just takes a writer/creator to explore other facets of their character or push them in another narrative.

I too want them to push Jean in different and new directions but that requires effort and a creator who wants to give her a voice. Look at the krakoa era, she mainly defers to others, never reacts or has a say in things that impact and should have a great affect on her. That’s not the character’s fault but the writers.

[MechaJeanix]

Not to downplay Jean Grey's importance in the X-men publishing history and no offense towards all her fans from the comics who like her for a combination of qualities beyond those mentioned below, but the way it seems to me she doesn't hold nearly as much pull or popularity to the general X-men fanbase outside the comics or even in them.

General pop culture awareness of the character seems to be at best limited to these 4 elements.
1. Being one of the original X-men and a telekinetic.
2. The relationship conflict between Cyclops and Wolverine over her.
3. Becomming super powerfull but also out of control because of the Phoenix Force.
4. Dying to stop the Phoenix Force.

Especialy point 2-4 are apparently overshadowing not only anything else done with the character before, but even what will be done with her afterwards. So even when someone tries to do anything else with her, it just gets lost to memory osmsis.

It's no suprise then that it's basicly all her character was used or remembered for in the various adapations over the years.
X-men TAS, the first X-men trilogy of movies (X-men, X-men United, X-men the Last Stand), Wolverine and the X-men, the X-men reboot triology of movies (First Class, Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix) and while Evolution left out the Wolverine thing (thankfully in my opinion), even that show was hinting at Dark Phoenix eventualy showing up in it's "things to come" segment in the last episode.

As cruel as it sounds, to most people aware of the X-men, the character appears to have a definitive end point unlike most other characters.
She has one big role and once that has fullfilled it, nobody seems to know what to do with her anymore but make her more powerfull, which isn't really helping her personality and story wise.

Even most of the comic writers over the years when she is alive, appear unable to find anything else to do with her beyond those 4 points and those who DO try to do something different with her again can't seem to make it stick, as the next writer is sure to forget about it again and downgrade her to those 4 points.

Claremeont made her super powerfull with the Phoenix Force and ultimately gave her one of the most memorable tragic deaths in X-men history, but he also doomed her to be forever restricted to it.

Considering that the Dark Phoenix storyline was allready done with Jean Grey in X-men TAS, she is now basicly in a "post scriptum" state in this incarnation. So it really might be an uphill battle for the writers to get her over with a new or the old viewership who could have little expectations or interest in the character.

I've officially had too much internet for today.

While it may be true that fans that aren't familiar with the comics may have a limited imagination when it comes to Jean, I don't think it is near as bleak as you make it out to be. I do agree some comic creators like Matt Fraction and those of that era also lacked imagination when it comes to Jean, but there is still plenty to do with her. It just takes writers who haven't already decided that all Jean is are those things you listed. Now she does have some central themes (and this is true of all the main characters - they have themes that we see over and over) and Jean's include her powers, her relationships, and the Phoenix (especially when you look at her entire history together).

I disagree that Jean is restricted by the Phoenix since the character existed before it and has existed after it. We've seen Jean without the Phoenix many, many times. If anything, it would be interesting to me to see her as Phoenix as Rachel got to be in Excalibur, but alas that will likely never happen.

In the cartoon we could have a lot of growth for Jean because they can show Jean grow in the use of her powers (since X-men TAS wasn't the best showring for her abilities but she did have some good moments), we can see her take Xavier's place as the leading psychic on the team, they could show Jean at times be a leader (maybe show that progression like they did in the comics), we can show more of her friendship with Storm and the other X-men. Jean's story isn't over. Maybe we can see Jean be more of an activist for Mutant rights.

We already saw positive effects from the other media when it comes to Jean. In the X-men movies it was shown that Jean was very powerful even as a child. We saw that also in Wolverine in the X-men (we saw Jean as a powerful teen in X-men Evolution), and while Claremont hinted at Jean's power when she was a kid most writers didn't show that. Now in the comics it is common knowledge that Jean was always very powerful (of course Jean was shown to be a very powerful telepath in the comics in the OG days when her telepathy first was revealed). But it is more cemented in the narrative now and I think the movies and cartoons had a role in that.

One of the big problems with the movies was that they told the same story with her twice and both times they botched it - and both times ended with her death. In Dark Phoenix, Xavier should have done something different with Jean due to what he saw from Wolverine's mind in the X-men movie Days of Future Past. They should have told a different version of Dark Phoenix as things should have been differently this time with both Jean and Xavier. Ah, well.

I hate the narrative that the Phoenix automatically equals death for Jean or the narrative that she cant' control her powers (as we know the DPS was way more than that and there were other times Jean did control her powers and the phoenix).

If nothing else the OG cartoon did damage the character, because some casual fans still see her as the damsel that faints. I recall watching X-men 1 for the first time when it came out and these dudebros sitting near me were like "Jean doesn't go on missions". They thought all Jean did was monitor missions from cerebro.

With this new cartoon they get to do a course correction for Jean.

[Tank]

i think it's lack of creativity not jean posessing the phoenix that doomed her. Because the fans imo want to see the next level. I know i was shocked back when all of a sudden she was hit with the physic flash at the cabin in arkansas and all of a sudden losing her powers. Before that it seemed like the story was going somewhere she was going to get there on her own because phoenix wasn't there, she was on the trajectory to claiming that identity for herself and growing beyond it and wham, imo from what i read of his run it was morrison who to me made the phoenix into the parasite it was today. Just the idea of using words like host for jean, having it speak in a differnt voice, the exorcist like moments of jean having her eyes closed and professor taking to it while the spoons spinned around. What i read of it was turning the xmen inside out and that's how i knew it wasn't for me. I know some say the phoenix was a parasite in claremont story but i just can't ascribe to that. Jean fought, and she fought hard and she embraced and she embraced hard and i tend to believe the characters when written well and her friends weren't fighting for her because there was nothing to save, they were fighting for her because she was fighting for them. The phoenix didn't corrupt Jean and Jean didn't corrupt the phoenix, man corrupted both and that's the real truth of that story.

I agree with all this. Great post

[nx01a]

Is it so important for Jean to be viewed as the most powerful telepath? There's a lot of them, let the others have some breathing room

I'd prefer Jean to be an omega telekinetic (plus an extremely powerful telepath) and let Charles be an omega telepath.