How much should Circe be like the myth version?

[marhawkman]

Reading about the myths... well... the WW Circe isn't a whole lot like the original. Yeah, there's similarities. For a start, the DC version "loosely" treats the story of the mythical character as backstory. But, it leaves it as back story. Those are all things that happened like... 3000 years ago or something and don't really come up in the present.

Which is a bit odd since the old stories talked about how she had a family living on Aeaea with her. She was an exiled princess, and lived like a queen... with proper subjects, and heirs. Yeah the various myths listed 3 of her children... and they weren't helpless babies either; more like henchmen.

which is a big difference, Aeaea was a small kingdom, but a proper kingdom, and not just a single megalomaniac with minions who are forced to serve her.

[AmiMizuno]

In some versions she does have some type of relationship with the Amazons. I do like the idea of her transform men into animals. She did use them to make potions. I mean also many myths have some very different versions. So it's hard to say. That's why they play loose. I like the idea of Hecate being her mother. Has in some Hecate is her mother. In golden age Circe was sent away by Hippoltya. I feel like at one point maybe she and the Amazons had a relations like maybe she taught some magic. But something happened.

[Gaius]

WW's takes on the Gods and the Amazons, including versions that purport to be more "accurate" like the New 52, doesn't lineup with how the Greeks thought of them so that's fair to apply to Circe.

Wonder Woman writers probably gotten more use out of her connections to Hecate than her role in The Odyssey, honestly.

[marhawkman]

WW's takes on the Gods and the Amazons, including versions that purport to be more "accurate" like the New 52, doesn't lineup with how the Greeks thought of them so that's fair to apply to Circe.

Wonder Woman writers probably gotten more use out of her connections to Hecate than her role in The Odyssey, honestly.

They allude to the Odyssey a LOT though! Which is why it feels weird. Certain aspects get used but while OFTEN used are used in superficial ways.

Which is why I keep going back to her children and citizens.... their non-presence is the biggest change to the character. Which is made even more apparent after they did a story line where Circe has a daughter in the present day. Having Lyta Milton meet Cassiphone would be neat.

[John Venus]

I think the backstory Tynion came up with for Circe in JLD works and it reconciles the myths with WW's lore.

The way WW approaches Greek Mythology is as a perspective flip. Heracles who is a hero in the myth is the villain. Ares who is a loser in the myths is instead the ultimate big bad.

Marstons's (or rather his ghost writers) original idea for Circe is as an adversary for Hippolyta. Just as the Amazons became sympathetic when you see Heracles attack on them from their perspective, Circe, who is a more sympathetic figure in the Odyssey becomes more villainous when you confront the inherent cruelty of her turning men and women into animals. Thus Circe is meant to act as a foil to the Amazons, who use their abilities for good and the betterment of humanity while Circe uses it to lord over others.

The Greek Myths themselves aren't set in stone. There are multiple variations of the story and even adaptations that claim to be accurate often changes details as well. If writers are going to Greek Mythology is WW lore, they should be filtered through the lens of how the characters are meant to be depicted in the WW world.

[kjn]

The way WW approaches Greek Mythology is as a perspective flip. Heracles who is a hero in the myth is the villain. Ares who is a loser in the myths is instead the ultimate big bad.

Correct, but a perspective flip with a specific direction: towards giving female characters a voice and telling the stories of women in their way.

Marstons's (or rather his ghost writers) original idea for Circe is as an adversary for Hippolyta. Just as the Amazons became sympathetic when you see Heracles attack on them from their perspective, Circe, who is a more sympathetic figure in the Odyssey becomes more villainous when you confront the inherent cruelty of her turning men and women into animals. Thus Circe is meant to act as a foil to the Amazons, who use their abilities for good and the betterment of humanity while Circe uses it to lord over others.

The Greek Myths themselves aren't set in stone. There are multiple variations of the story and even adaptations that claim to be accurate often changes details as well. If writers are going to Greek Mythology is WW lore, they should be filtered through the lens of how the characters are meant to be depicted in the WW world.

I very much agree that the Greek myths should be re-filtered and re-imagined when telling in a Wonder Woman context. The problem is rather that it was done poorly in Circe's case. For some reason, the "evil seductress" template was stuck on her, despite the many different interpretations of the character that had been made through time.

The problem that Circe in Wonder Woman isn't that she's too dissimilar to the mythology, it's that her depiction is stuck in a superficial interpretation of a few specific elements of the myth of Circe, AND that her depiction in Wonder Woman doesn't work within the narrative and ideological framework that underpins the world-building in Wonder Woman.

[marhawkman]

Correct, but a perspective flip with a specific direction: towards giving female characters a voice and telling the stories of women in their way.

I very much agree that the Greek myths should be re-filtered and re-imagined when telling in a Wonder Woman context. The problem is rather that it was done poorly in Circe's case. For some reason, the "evil seductress" template was stuck on her, despite the many different interpretations of the character that had been made through time.

The problem that Circe in Wonder Woman isn't that she's too dissimilar to the mythology, it's that her depiction is stuck in a superficial interpretation of a few specific elements of the myth of Circe, AND that her depiction in Wonder Woman doesn't work within the narrative and ideological framework that underpins the world-building in Wonder Woman.

Yeah this is why I keep going to the family thing.... in the myths Circe was defined by her familial relations. Exiled princess of Colchis...etc... and her children. She sometimes ends up in WW stories as a one-note evil witch doing it for teh evulz.... just... why?!?!? even the comics don't ALWAYS make her a one-note character. which is part of why I liked the Lyta Milton story development. It gave Circe a real goal in life!

[John Venus]

Correct, but a perspective flip with a specific direction: towards giving female characters a voice and telling the stories of women in their way.

I very much agree that the Greek myths should be re-filtered and re-imagined when telling in a Wonder Woman context. The problem is rather that it was done poorly in Circe's case. For some reason, the "evil seductress" template was stuck on her, despite the many different interpretations of the character that had been made through time.

The problem that Circe in Wonder Woman isn't that she's too dissimilar to the mythology, it's that her depiction is stuck in a superficial interpretation of a few specific elements of the myth of Circe, AND that her depiction in Wonder Woman doesn't work within the narrative and ideological framework that underpins the world-building in Wonder Woman.

What are your thoughts on Tynion's take on her in JLD? She was an abused wife who took revenge on her husband but was ostracized by her people for it. Or Perez's take on her in 'War of the Gods'?

[kjn]

Yeah this is why I keep going to the family thing.... in the myths Circe was defined by her familial relations. Exiled princess of Colchis...etc... and her children. She sometimes ends up in WW stories as a one-note evil witch doing it for teh evulz.... just... why?!?!? even the comics don't ALWAYS make her a one-note character. which is part of why I liked the Lyta Milton story development. It gave Circe a real goal in life!

One of my favourite takes on Circe is the way she is used in the story of Jason and Medea (she's Medea's aunt or older cousin), where she acts as a moral sounding board for the two, and Circe navigates between condemning crimes and her duties as a relative and hostess.

What are your thoughts on Tynion's take on her in JLD? She was an abused wife who took revenge on her husband but was ostracized by her people for it. Or Perez's take on her in 'War of the Gods'?

I liked the way Tynion dug into her backstory and her connections with Hecate, but in the end I felt he fell back on a Circe who was just power-mad. I haven't read "War of the Gods" (poor Wonder Woman fan here), but checking a synopsis it looks like Tynion took major inspiration from there for the characterisation of Circe and the plotting of JLD.

[DABellWrites]

In my opinion, not much at all. Wonder Woman works better when writers get creative. Like, Tynion did in JLD with Hecate. I liked the idea she's some primal God.

[marhawkman]

What are your thoughts on Tynion's take on her in JLD? She was an abused wife who took revenge on her husband but was ostracized by her people for it. Or Perez's take on her in 'War of the Gods'?

I haven't read it, but looked up a summary. Hmm the good? it's not Circe as the Big Bad.... that's Hecate's job. Having Circe SAVE Wonder Woman from Hecate? that's a really interesting story idea.

Then we find out Circe was saving people from Hecate... in order to steal Hecate's power.

[kjn]

In my opinion, not much at all. Wonder Woman works better when writers get creative. Like, Tynion did in JLD with Hecate. I liked the idea she's some primal God.

Tynion did a reasonably recognisable Hecate back in JLD. Sadly I don't think he did anything interesting with her in the end, though.

My take on creativity in this regard rather the opposite. If you're going to introduce someone named Circe in Wonder Woman, then you ought to make sure she is connected in some recognisable way to the mythological Circe. Otherwise you're better off writing an entirely original character. You can of course be creative, liberal, or drastic in your interpretation of her, but ideally your Circe should say something about or comment on the mythological Circe.

[marhawkman]

Hunh, was looking at old stuff, and found something interesting... Pre-crisis had "Super-Horse"... who was actually one of Circe's minions, but helped out Supergirl and friends every now and then.

For an extra fun wrinkle... the horse thing wasn't actually Circe's idea and the guy who did it kinda POed Circe.