The Voice (Dune) vs Jedi Mind Trick

[JohnDiggle]

Which is more effective?

[big_adventure]

Given that the JMT fails on 100% of named characters, I'd have to go "Voice." It at least works from time to time on people with an IQ above 70.

[Totoro Man]

in the book it worked quite well on Thufir Hawat, who's certainly not an idiot. Lady Jessica implied that she COULD have used it to force Duke Leto to marry her... but chose not to out of respect/affection for the man. based on what we've seen the Voice do, I don't think that's narrative hyperbole.

we're even explictly told that the JMT only works on people that are weak minded and lacking in will-power.

so, curbstomp in favor of the Voice.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

Jedi Mind Trick wins because its proven to work on dozens and dozens of species, whereas the Voice hasn’t.

[grampagen]

Hmm...depends on the situation, I suppose?

If say, Paul Atreides and Luke Skywalker uh....'sat down and talked' so to speak, I'd give the edge to Paul, for example. EU nothwithstanding, naturally.

While the Jedi Mind Trick is the power of suggestion that works on the weak-willed as noted above, the Bene Gesserit Voice both is and isn't. It works more like a hypnotic command or conditioned trigger that doesn't really have anything to do with willpower, but triggering responses from stimulus. Someone can only defend against The Voice if they cannot receive the trigger - in Dune, this was invoked through silencing fields or simply being deaf - or if they have been sufficiently trained in how to use it themselves. Paul, who was trained in the Bene Gesserit ways by his mother, was still unable to resist it when he was a boy going up against a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother.

It also works to break conditioning. If I recall correctly, Paul uses it on a Sardaukar to get him to spill information. It's noted that this is quite the feat because besides their physical prowess and discipline, Sardaukar are neurally conditioned cult fanatics that are loyal to the Emperor of House Corrino. Like religious zealotry levels, willful to the cause to the end and such. Paul not only gets him to break, but deliver a specific message back to the Emperor.

If Darth Vader could do something like this, Leia would have cracked in A New Hope.

Overall, I guess it's situational. The Voice doesn't work on deaf people, but induces total control, the Jedi Mind Trick can be used on everyone unless they know what the Jedi is trying to do.

[Totoro Man]

both of these techniques require the following:
1. the subject hears what is being said
2. has basic reasoning ability (for example the JMT has never been shown to work on animals, pretty sure the Voice hasn't either)
3. understand the words (if the words aren't understood then the technique doesn't work, right?)
4a. it is explicitly stated that the JMT target needs to be weak-minded, and be prone to suggestion; there is no similar condition required by the Voice.
4b. the Voice has only ever been used on human beings (because there are no aliens, so-to-speak, in that universe)

if a person were deaf they would be equally immune to both techniques.

I would also argue that the variety of species that have been influenced by the JMT does NOT tip the scales that heavily in its favor. just because it's been used on a wider variety of targets doesn't mean that it is the more powerful or effective technique. after all, it has been ignored and mocked by a larger variety of species too.

moreover, an untrained but strong-willed being has been shown to resist the JMT. observe Jabba the Hutt: we have no reason to believe he was trained in the ways of the Force. yet he still casually laughs off an attempted JMT by Luke Skywalker.

as a point of contrast: Thufir Hawat and Paul Atreides were both subdued by the Voice at various points in the story. these are not weak-minded or stupid characters.

the things The Voice was shown to have accomplished in the Dune novels surpasses just about anything I've seen done with the Jedi Mind Trick. there are defenses against the Voice:
1. eliminate the sound source through silence
2. overpower the sound source with noise
3. be more powerful in the same techniques than the person trying to use it on you.

to put it in perspective, in terms of narrative reactions, nobody in the Star Wars Universe panics at the thought of a somebody using a JMT on them. the Voice is a known and greatly feared technique in the Dune universe. it was considered dangerous enough that a deaf soldier was used to apprehend Lady Jessica. since his partner COULD hear, being deaf still didn't stop him from getting killed by proxies with the Voice.

the JMT has certainly been put to good use on a lot of different species. but, last I checked, it hasn't gotten people to stab one of their co-workers to death.

[Postmania]

Yeah the Voice seems better able to accomplish extreme things to me.

A Jedi mind trick is just a trick.

[big_adventure]

to put it in perspective, in terms of narrative reactions, nobody in the Star Wars Universe panics at the thought of a somebody using a JMT on them. the Voice is a known and greatly feared technique in the Dune universe. it was considered dangerous enough that a deaf soldier was used to apprehend Lady Jessica. since his partner COULD hear, being deaf still didn't stop him from getting killed by proxies with the Voice.

Well, this isn't quite true. The opening of the Phantom Menace was literally all about the fears of the trade guild puppets that the two Jedis would "force a settlement." This is why they send a droid, not a living being. One could argue that the trade guild Sesame Street characters were weak-willed, but that's never shown and they show strong enough will to order the murder of two Jedi knights (granted, when they think that they have no chance of failure).

[Postmania]

Did they say they would use Jedi mind powers to specifically control them for that though? I interpreted that as just Jedi using martial power to compel an agreement

[big_adventure]

Did they say they would use Jedi mind powers to specifically control them for that though? I interpreted that as just Jedi using martial power to compel an agreement

How would two dudes dressed like Jeff Lebowski use combat to compel an agreement of a fleet of a thousand warships? I interpreted it as "JMT to the rescue." Now, that's not a feat, it was really just to address the point of "nobody is afraid of the JMT." Qui Gon even says "negotiations will be brief." Obi Wan takes the piss out of him for that, after the murder attempt, saying "you were right, master, negotiations were brief."

[BitVyper]

Eh, they sound more afraid of the Jedi Order as a whole. Buddy doesn't want to be alone with two Jedi, but that could be for any number of reasons, when they're talking to Palpatine, they say "we dare not going against the Jedi," which sounds like they're talking about the order as a whole. It's not like they think it's impossible when Palps says to kill then or anything, they're fine doing it after he says he'll make the invasion legal, which suggests their main fear is reprisal.

[big_adventure]

Eh, they sound more afraid of the Jedi Order as a whole. Buddy doesn't want to be alone with two Jedi, but that could be for any number of reasons, when they're talking to Palpatine, they say "we dare not going against the Jedi," which sounds like they're talking about the order as a whole. It's not like they think it's impossible when Palps says to kill then or anything, they're fine doing it after he says he'll make the invasion legal, which suggests their main fear is reprisal.

Watch the scene again - they literally say "they are here to force a settlement." And the logical way to do that would be JMT-backed negotiations. Again, this is not a valid feat for the JMT - they never use it in that part of the movie - but it seems to me like it's what the scene implies. We'll never know, I hope.

[Scott Taylor]

I always got the impression that the Voice lasted a bit longer than the JMT. The JMT is fine for getting past a border check, or striking a deal with someone, but its very momentary. Whereas the Voice will get people to fight for you for an extended time. I'm honestly not sure how long the effects of the Voice last, but it seems indefinite.

[Zelena]

I would say that the “Voice” is more effective because it sounds more realistic. Some people have a commanding voice that triggers an automatic response. It’s not just the voice, though, it’s also the attitude, the glare… and implies a fine knowledge of the person in front of you. The “Voice” feels like a “upgrading”.

[Postmania]

How would two dudes dressed like Jeff Lebowski use combat to compel an agreement of a fleet of a thousand warships? I interpreted it as "JMT to the rescue." Now, that's not a feat, it was really just to address the point of "nobody is afraid of the JMT." Qui Gon even says "negotiations will be brief." Obi Wan takes the piss out of him for that, after the murder attempt, saying "you were right, master, negotiations were brief."

If they're put in front of the two leaders (or chop their way through the small army to get to them), they can hold those leaders hostage. Cut off head, etc.

I never interpreted that scene as involving mind control. Unless that happens elsewhere in Star Wars diplomatic canon I don't really see it