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  1. #61
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I don't see anything wrong here. The IF mantle is something that's been passed down through generations and now it's been passed down to someone else.

    Danny Rand can still take the Nightwing route and create his own identity.

    ...
    Yep.

    ...and that's before you even think over that Danny probably has one of the more lengthy tenures as the Iron Fist.

    (Well, outside of Orson. Which was an obvious oddity.)

  2. #62
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Because Shang Chi made bank and Danny in non grata in todays cultural climate.

  3. #63
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    I'd be down for all of this. Cage & Rand: Heroes-for-Hire sounds just as cool, really.
    Down for that too bro. Certainly has a ring.

    As for my thoughts on the issue, I've talked at length about this on the Iron Fist thread. To be brief, I'm hopeful for the new Iron Fist. I look forward to him. And I'm hopeful that one day Danny can become the Iron Fist without the negative sting.
    Last edited by Tien Long; 11-20-2021 at 08:26 PM.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  4. #64
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    Best Iron Fist was the lady with the bow, anyway. Pirate Queen Wu Ao-Shi.

  5. #65
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Because Shang Chi made bank and Danny in non grata in todays cultural climate.
    I think you're right about the first part, but not so much about the second.

    If Iron Fist and/or The Defenders had done extremely well on Netflix, to the point that they wanted to continue both series on Disney+ ... or so well, that they wanted to launch something for the big screen ... then I doubt that Danny gets changed. Money talks, even when there are social, cultural and other concerns with how a character is received by the public. Just add something to the character's origin or background in the script that mitigates those concerns. But because Iron Fist didn't do so well, and many people were pointing fingers at the actor, AND on top of all that there are the cultural concerns, then Marvel figured that now is as good a time as any to finally pass on the Iron Fist powers to the next "chosen one." It was just time for someone else to give ol' Shou-Lao a big hug.

    There will be plenty of other Iron Fists as this is an eternal competition and ritual. And I strongly suspect that many of the future Iron Fists will reflect a diverse pool of top fighters from all over the world.

  6. #66
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    It's still his own thing. His father used it for evil, now Shang will use it to do good. Instead of a conqueror he will be a hero.
    No, really, it's not Shang's own thing. In the comics, Temujin was the son of the Mandarin who inherited his father's rings. Shang's story in the MCU basically appropriates that story. I don't care whether it's a villain or a hero, you can't rip off someone else's legend and call it your own. Now, if you want to look at Shang's history in the comics and go with that as his own thing, then I'll agree with you there. Shang's history in comics was/is pretty damn impressive...without him being made the son of the Mandarin and getting his 10 rings. But Marvel needed to keep the "chase and acquire shiny object" trope going, so here we are.

  7. #67
    BANNED Xheight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I think you're right about the first part, but not so much about the second.

    If Iron Fist and/or The Defenders had done extremely well on Netflix, to the point that they wanted to continue both series on Disney+ ... or so well, that they wanted to launch something for the big screen ... then I doubt that Danny gets changed. Money talks, even when there are social, cultural and other concerns with how a character is received by the public. Just add something to the character's origin or background in the script that mitigates those concerns. But because Iron Fist didn't do so well, and many people were pointing fingers at the actor, AND on top of all that there are the cultural concerns, then Marvel figured that now is as good a time as any to finally pass on the Iron Fist powers to the next "chosen one." It was just time for someone else to give ol' Shou-Lao a big hug.

    There will be plenty of other Iron Fists as this is an eternal competition and ritual. And I strongly suspect that many of the future Iron Fists will reflect a diverse pool of top fighters from all over the world.
    I think you onto something with Danny's television fail impacting the process. A Friend of mine suggested that they followed the Comics too close and should have started with Danny and Luke being a pair as that was the more successful comic as well.

  8. #68
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    I think you onto something with Danny's television fail impacting the process. A Friend of mine suggested that they followed the Comics too close and should have started with Danny and Luke being a pair as that was the more successful comic as well.
    Your friend could be right. In the comics it took both Luke and Danny teaming up under one title to take their individual titles to the next level.

    But I also think the other forum members are right in saying that what works for Danny in the 20th century won't necessarily work as well in the 21st century because the collective conscience has evolved just enough that you really have to sell people on his story. And Marvel cinematic folks have to put together a script for him with better talent, or the viewers will disengage from your narrative.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    I think you onto something with Danny's television fail impacting the process. A Friend of mine suggested that they followed the Comics too close and should have started with Danny and Luke being a pair as that was the more successful comic as well.
    They didn't really follow the comics at all, though.

    Netflix Danny was an utter dick. He left the people who saved him from certain death high and dry to go home and live out a midlife crisis. And the characters were determined to never let us forget it.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    No, really, it's not Shang's own thing. In the comics, Temujin was the son of the Mandarin who inherited his father's rings. Shang's story in the MCU basically appropriates that story. I don't care whether it's a villain or a hero, you can't rip off someone else's legend and call it your own. Now, if you want to look at Shang's history in the comics and go with that as his own thing, then I'll agree with you there. Shang's history in comics was/is pretty damn impressive...without him being made the son of the Mandarin and getting his 10 rings. But Marvel needed to keep the "chase and acquire shiny object" trope going, so here we are.
    I think that MCU Shang chi changes were made necessary by the simple fact that most of comic backstory of shanghai cannot be used anymore. Even in the comics. His father originally was no one else but freaking Fu Manchu. Yeah that one. That in scale of "problematic" character scale rate at same level of that crazy sentient egg enemy of wonder woman. In comics they simply started referring him, when they have to bring it back Shang ancestry of evil, they just refer him as "shang chi father" or "your father " never by name, is a character without name...
    In movie would have been hard to pull off, and since they were in sore need to make it right to mandarin since iron man 3..the caught two birds with one stone

  11. #71
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron of Faltine View Post
    I think that MCU Shang chi changes were made necessary by the simple fact that most of comic backstory of shanghai cannot be used anymore. Even in the comics. His father originally was no one else but freaking Fu Manchu. Yeah that one. That in scale of "problematic" character scale rate at same level of that crazy sentient egg enemy of wonder woman. In comics they simply started referring him, when they have to bring it back Shang ancestry of evil, they just refer him as "shang chi father" or "your father " never by name, is a character without name...
    In movie would have been hard to pull off, and since they were in sore need to make it right to mandarin since iron man 3..the caught two birds with one stone
    Even with setting aside Fu Manchu, choosing someone other than the Mandarin still works better imho for Shang. The MCU has license to pretty much do anything that they want to, irrespective of what occurred in comics. So instead of the Mandarin casually mentioning that he sometimes went by the name Master Khan, who is actually a separate character (and -- bonus -- an Iron Fist and Namor villain) in the comics, why not establish Master Khan as Shang Chi's father? You can still leave some of Shang's history intact, if that's what you want to do, and create a plot point that ties into future movies. It didn't have to be Mandarin or his 10 rings, but for the fact that someone really REALLY wanted to push that device and narrative. I mean they really twisted themselves into a pretzel retconning earlier Mandarin appearances in the MCU, which I found utterly ridiculous. But whatever.
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  12. #72
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Even with setting aside Fu Manchu, choosing someone other than the Mandarin still works better imho for Shang. The MCU has license to pretty much do anything that they want to, irrespective of what occurred in comics. So instead of the Mandarin casually mentioning that he sometimes went by the name Master Khan, who is actually a separate character (and -- bonus -- an Iron Fist and Namor villain) in the comics, why not establish Master Khan as Shang Chi's father? You can still leave some of Shang's history intact, if that's what you want to do, and create a plot point that ties into future movies. It didn't have to be Mandarin or his 10 rings, but for the fact that someone really REALLY wanted to push that device and narrative. I mean they really twisted themselves into a pretzel retconning earlier Mandarin appearances in the MCU, which I found utterly ridiculous. But whatever.
    Well with the master Khan quote they left that door open, expecially considering that in the movie mandarin was not the name he would have chosen himself. And honestly the character is actually quite cool that I want to see him more...
    Honestly I did not minded that much, and the rings were curious tools in the movie I would like to knew more they are very different from their comic counterpart more limited and yet...

  13. #73
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    He wasn’t the Mandarin and honestly Shang-Chi didn’t resemble his comic counterpart very much either. Which I guess is fine with people who don’t know about the books, but to me it is a wasted opportunity.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    No, really, it's not Shang's own thing. In the comics, Temujin was the son of the Mandarin who inherited his father's rings. Shang's story in the MCU basically appropriates that story. I don't care whether it's a villain or a hero, you can't rip off someone else's legend and call it your own. Now, if you want to look at Shang's history in the comics and go with that as his own thing, then I'll agree with you there. Shang's history in comics was/is pretty damn impressive...without him being made the son of the Mandarin and getting his 10 rings. But Marvel needed to keep the "chase and acquire shiny object" trope going, so here we are.
    Aside from the rings is there really a huge difference between all the Yellow Peril inspired villains in the MU? Mandarin, Fu Manchu and Yellow Claw all run together in my mind. They're all immortal, they're all leaders of empires/criminal organizations that date back centuries and they all represent negative Western perception of China and Communist Chinese. At least Mandarin's 10 Rings and connection to alien space dragons gives him something a little bit more distinct than the rest. That's probably why (besides the negative reception towards IM3) they combined them all of them into one character in the form of Xu Wenwu for the movie but kept more of the Mandarin elements than anyone else's. They also succeeded in humanizing the Mandarin to a level which I haven't seen any other adaptation do before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xheight View Post
    I think you onto something with Danny's television fail impacting the process. A Friend of mine suggested that they followed the Comics too close and should have started with Danny and Luke being a pair as that was the more successful comic as well.
    Not even close.

    I'm far from an Iron Fist expert and while I think the comic version has it's problems, comic book Rand was not a petulant, spoiled manchild or 'thundering dumb ass' (Stick's words) in any comic I've read.

    For one thing, comic book Danny watched Meachum kill his parents at a mountain pass. Danny's father himself had ties to K'un L'un. He didn't come back to New York to get his company back, he came back to kill Meachum but even then refused to do so because he thought Meachun was disabled. He didn't abandon K'un L'un, he turned down the offer to be it's protector so he can go back to NY.

    The thing is even if they had no choice but to do a white Iron Fist, there were still ways they could have avoided the problematic tropes and done justice to the mythos. The tv show felt like it was designed to realize everybody's worst fears about the character and how it all could go wrong. IMO, I think the first Dr Strange film did a good job of avoiding some of the problematic elements from his mythos, the one major slip up was Tilda Swinton as the Ancient One.

  15. #75
    Mighty Member Baron of Faltine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    He wasn’t the Mandarin and honestly Shang-Chi didn’t resemble his comic counterpart very much either. Which I guess is fine with people who don’t know about the books, but to me it is a wasted opportunity.
    Mandarin depiction in comics was all over the places, even more so than other "yellow peril" villains, to the point that you could be wrong and correct at same time. And Shang chi....his most recent pre-movie appearance were more in tone with the movie.

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