Why are villains written like antiheroes these days.

[Rac7d*]

Are villains these days too grey? Writing experts would tell you that the more ambiguous you make you villain the better. But when you look at all the popular supervillains they are almost always the more Capital E evil villains. I thing you really need both.

You can’t sell a villain who really a villain without somone worse to antagonize them
Villains can’t succeed in destroying or taking over the world that’s a franchise killer
A villain can’t be rewarded for succeeding with heinous acts

It’s bad for character like poison Ivy who can’t be the lgbt rep for DC and evil so she sits in the middle doing nothing

[Robotman]

I have no problem with giving villains more layers. Understanding why they do what they do can being pretty interesting when done right. “Every villain is the hero of their own story.”

I dont think writers should delve too deep and deconstruct villains to an obnoxious extent. But I think it’s kinda boring to just say they were born evil and that’s that.

of all the DC villains who have been given a more sympathetic background, only Black Adam, Poison Ivy, and Harley have crossed over to the “anti-hero” status. Sinestro, Cheetah, Luthor, etc are portrayed as pure villains most of the time. There are bad guys that do good things because they have bombs in their heads but that’s different.

[Dred]

I think there's a misunderstanding on what an anti-hero is here. And anti-hero is someone who does good (heroic) things, but has less than moral/evil motivations and attitudes(the anti). Harley, as an example, hasn't been an antihero in awhile and is basically fully heroic at this point. Someone who does heroic things for heroic reasons is a hero, even if Harley's a little wacky/insane while doing it. The most common antihero trope is someone who takes down villains not because they're doing bad things, but because it's easier to kill them and they're in their way.

A lot of villains are becoming more like Anti-Villains, people who do bad things (villainous things) but presumably have good reasons to do so and their actions will lead to something good happening (the anti). Writers have, rightfully so, wanted more nuanced villains and a lot of time that comes with giving them a moralistic motivation and goal. Though someone can still be a full on villain (doing bad things for a bad cause) while still believably thinking they're in the right -- Ra's Al Ghul is a good example of this. Or Luthor, who's goal is to do a bad thing (beat Superman) for a bad reason (because he thinks Superman is bad for the world) -- but we know why he thinks his bad reason is important and it's inherently coherent.

[king81992]

I like anti-villains but it's a fine line; it can sometimes be too tempting/easy at times to turn them into a loveable badass anti-hero. Deathstroke and Black Adam in particular.

There is nothing lovable about Deathstroke, although Wolfman, a bunch of other writers and his fanbase tried they best to justify and whitewash everything he did.

[king81992]

I have no problem with giving villains more layers. Understanding why they do what they do can being pretty interesting when done right. “Every villain is the hero of their own story.”

I dont think writers should delve too deep and deconstruct villains to an obnoxious extent. But I think it’s kinda boring to just say they were born evil and that’s that.

of all the DC villains who have been given a more sympathetic background, only Black Adam, Poison Ivy, and Harley have crossed over to the “anti-hero” status. Sinestro, Cheetah, Luthor, etc are portrayed as pure villains most of the time. There are bad guys that do good things because they have bombs in their heads but that’s different.

Ivy gets a free pass because of 'protecting the environment' and Harley gets a free pass because 'LOL Randumb', neither of them are actually heroic.

[Dred]

Ivy gets a free pass because of 'protecting the environment' and Harley gets a free pass because 'LOL Randumb', neither of them are actually heroic.

Harley has actively helped heroes for years now, man. And the only reason she has to do it is because she wants to and to further break her identity away from the villainous person she was with Joker. She's a bog standard hero with a lol randumb personality.

[king81992]

I think there's a misunderstanding on what an anti-hero is here. And anti-hero is someone who does good (heroic) things, but has less than moral/evil motivations and attitudes(the anti). Harley, as an example, hasn't been an antihero in awhile and is basically fully heroic at this point. Someone who does heroic things for heroic reasons is a hero, even if Harley's a little wacky/insane while doing it. The most common antihero trope is someone who takes down villains not because they're doing bad things, but because it's easier to kill them and they're in their way.

A lot of villains are becoming more like Anti-Villains, people who do bad things (villainous things) but presumably have good reasons to do so and their actions will lead to something good happening (the anti). Writers have, rightfully so, wanted more nuanced villains and a lot of time that comes with giving them a moralistic motivation and goal. Though someone can still be a full on villain (doing bad things for a bad cause) while still believably thinking they're in the right -- Ra's Al Ghul is a good example of this. Or Luthor, who's goal is to do a bad thing (beat Superman) for a bad reason (because he thinks Superman is bad for the world) -- but we know why he thinks his bad reason is important and it's inherently coherent.

Disagree with Harley being heroic.

Ra's is peak hypocrisy the character, everything he does is about maintaining his own immortality and gaining more influence, all the noble ideals he spouts are a cope.

Lex claims Superman is bad for the world and uses that as an excuse to antagonize him, but the real reason is that Superman's way of life proves Lex's philosophy to be wrong and he can't stand that.

[Rac7d*]

I think there's a misunderstanding on what an anti-hero is here. And anti-hero is someone who does good (heroic) things, but has less than moral/evil motivations and attitudes(the anti). Harley, as an example, hasn't been an antihero in awhile and is basically fully heroic at this point. Someone who does heroic things for heroic reasons is a hero, even if Harley's a little wacky/insane while doing it. The most common antihero trope is someone who takes down villains not because they're doing bad things, but because it's easier to kill them and they're in their way.

A lot of villains are becoming more like Anti-Villains, people who do bad things (villainous things) but presumably have good reasons to do so and their actions will lead to something good happening (the anti). Writers have, rightfully so, wanted more nuanced villains and a lot of time that comes with giving them a moralistic motivation and goal. Though someone can still be a full on villain (doing bad things for a bad cause) while still believably thinking they're in the right -- Ra's Al Ghul is a good example of this. Or Luthor, who's goal is to do a bad thing (beat Superman) for a bad reason (because he thinks Superman is bad for the world) -- but we know why he thinks his bad reason is important and it's inherently coherent.

Where does Deahtroke fall

He see's himself as the hero of his own story
but we the audience and everyone around him knows he's a murder and crazy for justify his acts
Even when he does accept what he does "its just buisness" He has his crazy revenge plot that make no sense, abuse of his children, and finally, his treatment of tara markov, but he gets rewarded, with multiple solo series, video game appearances, live action work, His own solo animated movie.

why does it work for, how is Slade Wilson the true breakout character of the teen titans?

[Dred]

Disagree with Harley being heroic.

Ra's is peak hypocrisy the character, everything he does is about maintaining his own immortality and gaining more influence, all the noble ideals he spouts are a cope.

Lex claims Superman is bad for the world and uses that as an excuse to antagonize him, but the real reason is that Superman's way of life proves Lex's philosophy to be wrong and he can't stand that.

Man she literally gets included in splashes with heroes, teams up with heroes all the time, literally has wacky back and forths with Batman while they do hero stuff. She's a hero. Maybe you don't like that fact but she clearly is. Her goals and motivations have more and more aligned with a hero who has a villainous past. Which is hardly uncommon in media.

Yes, Lex believes his own lies. But his actual motivation is villainous. That's what makes him a villain and not an antivillain.

Ra's motivation does change depending on the situation and writer. Sometimes he's just disenchanted with human overpopulation and self destruction and seeks to prevent that, but uses diabolical means to do so. Other times he's just an evil assassin lord. He varies but I think in recent decades he's closer to the former than a latter, which would make him an anti-villain.

Where does Deahtroke fall

He see's himself as the hero of his own story
but we the audience and everyone around him knows he's a murder and crazy for justify his acts
Even when he does accept what he does "its just buisness" He has his crazy revenge plot that make no sense, abuse of his children, and finally, his treatment of tara markov, but he gets rewarded, with multiple solo series, video game appearances, live action work, His own solo animated movie.

why does it work for, how is Slade Wilson the true breakout character of the teen titans?

Slade is an anti-hero. He often finds himself doing good or ostensibly heroic things but always has nefarious, selfish motivations or is doing it by happenstance. He kind of treads the line of anti-hero and villain depending on the story (often he's just straight up a villainous antagonist doing bad things for money, which is definitely not an anti hero) but in his solo work he's usually depicted as an anti-hero.

The reason the character gets rewarded is popularity. There's nothing more deep than that.

[marhawkman]

In my opinion, for a good example of what the OP is talking about, we can look at the Superman movies.

Superman 2.
"I am Zod, you are all weak, kneel before Zod."

Man of Steel.
"I am Zod, I am here to save all of Krypton. You must sacrifice yourself Kal to do that."

The first Zod is evil while the second one isn't evil, but forced to do bad things for the greater good. Or at least his perception of the greater good.

Well, you over simplified a bit. The issue with example 2, as Superman rightly pointed out, Zod didn't need to do his plan by killing Humans.... he CHOSE to. And when Superman confronted him about it, Zod revealed that it was intentional. Zod saw Earth as an ideal place to build a new home for himself, and thought Humans were in the way.

[king81992]

Where does Deahtroke fall

He see's himself as the hero of his own story
but we the audience and everyone around him knows he's a murder and crazy for justify his acts
Even when he does accept what he does "its just buisness" He has his crazy revenge plot that make no sense, abuse of his children, and finally, his treatment of tara markov, but he gets rewarded, with multiple solo series, video game appearances, live action work, His own solo animated movie.

why does it work for, how is Slade Wilson the true breakout character of the teen titans?

Slade is a villain that some writers and fans pretend is an antihero or misunderstood.

[marhawkman]

Slade is a villain that some writers and fans pretend is an antihero or misunderstood.

I have to agree there. I read a mini-series about Slade where he was the protagonist from way back in the day.... He wasn't a hero in that. He was a villain who got pissed off by other villains. Not even worse villains, just ones with different goals.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Where does Deahtroke fall

He see's himself as the hero of his own story
but we the audience and everyone around him knows he's a murder and crazy for justify his acts
Even when he does accept what he does "its just buisness" He has his crazy revenge plot that make no sense, abuse of his children, and finally, his treatment of tara markov, but he gets rewarded, with multiple solo series, video game appearances, live action work, His own solo animated movie.

why does it work for, how is Slade Wilson the true breakout character of the teen titans?

He's a villian in the recent Deathstroke comic. Antiheroes are a spectrum depending on how good or bad the characters are. So he'd be closer to the far end of the spectrum.

As for why Slade became the breakout, that's just common amongst villians. Star Wars has that same problem. Darth Maul was the breakout character of the prequels/clone wars.

[Frontier]

Man she literally gets included in splashes with heroes, teams up with heroes all the time, literally has wacky back and forths with Batman while they do hero stuff. She's a hero. Maybe you don't like that fact but she clearly is. Her goals and motivations have more and more aligned with a hero who has a villainous past. Which is hardly uncommon in media.

Yeah, but usually for nonsensical reasons that downplay or sweep under the rug a lot of the terrible things she's done or her personality issues. It's why a lot of people don't buy into "hero Harley."

But usually her motivations are mostly self-preservation that just happen to coincide with helping the heroes.

[I'm a Fish]

Because people need an excuse for why the hero "doesn't just kill them" in a cycle as repetitive as comics, and the most sure-fire way to achieve that by making the villain somewhat sympathetic.

Edit: Also because some of these villains are really old and writers felt like they needed to try something different.