Why are villains written like antiheroes these days.

[Gaius]

It's all in the execution.

Literally.

[The Cool Thatguy]

But there's any "original" villain, one we don't know the basics? They are just evil, or have parents issues, or think they are doing the right thing, or have a noble cause but are misguied, or some combination of it.

In Garth Ennis Punisher MAX the villains have simple archetypes, the sex-slavers, the old psycopath soldiers, etc. What I really like in what Ennis did, is even when he give us some sad backstory to his villains, he don't try to make us feel sympathy for them. They are evil people, doing disgusting things and when Frank brutally murders them, we feel good about it.

The difference is that characters like Sinestro or Black Adam, what they WON'T do is as important as what they will do.

Depth and contradictions allow the writers to elevate the story and engage the reader.

Punisher villains, and those like them, are nothing more than adult cartoons at best. With a villain willing to anything, nothing is really that interesting.

[Toxin45]

Seems like some villains becoming anti heroes while anti-villains exist ��. Honestly what about judge dredd villains and spawn villains? Joker,darkseid,brainiac,reverse flash,gorilla grodd,mongel,and mister mind are like really evil so turning them into antiheroes would be sour taste

[Stanlos]

Are villains these days too grey? Writing experts would tell you that the more ambiguous you make you villain the better. But when you look at all the popular supervillains they are almost always the more Capital E evil villains. I thing you really need both.

I think we can look at January 6th and the weird casual calls for killing up people. Nobody wants to see themselves as bad even when they are the WORST

[marhawkman]

Seems like some villains becoming anti heroes while anti-villains exist ��. Honestly what about judge dredd villains and spawn villains? Joker, Darkseid, Brainiac, Reverse Flash, Gorilla Grodd, Mongul, and mister mind are like really evil so turning them into antiheroes would be sour taste

I've read enough Dredd to know that while they don't make the villains likeable... they certainly add wrinkles to them. You don't need to make excuses for why a villain is a villain. You can write out motives and goals that are not nice or good, or even relatable. One could say that Darkseid is a family man... doesn't make him a good guy. His father died... but that was by Darkseid's hand. He has a biological son(Orion) and a foster son(Kalibak)... both of which hate him because he's a jerk. It's understandable and relatable... makes you hate Darkseid even more.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I've read enough Dredd to know that while they don't make the villains likeable... they certainly add wrinkles to them. You don't need to make excuses for why a villain is a villain. You can write out motives and goals that are not nice or good, or even relatable. One could say that Darkseid is a family man... doesn't make him a good guy. His father died... but that was by Darkseid's hand. He has a biological son(Orion) and a foster son(Kalibak)... both of which hate him because he's a jerk. It's understandable and relatable... makes you hate Darkseid even more.

Actually, Kalibak is Darkseid's biological son. The only reason he tolerates the moron is because he's all that remains of the wife he loved.

But yeah, I'm hard pressed to see where DC villains are becoming anti-heroes, by in large. Harley and Poison Ivy are more of the exception than the rule.

[Agent Z]

In the anime too, the difference is that in the anime he is a mysterious, cold man we know almost nothing about. He is just evil, have a rivalry with Spike that may or may not be tied to Julia. In the show he is a emotional mess with daddy issues and childhood traumas.

Yeah, but he isn't written like an antihero. Nor is he at all sympathetic.

[Baron of Faltine]

Actually, Kalibak is Darkseid's biological son. The only reason he tolerates the moron is because he's all that remains of the wife he loved.

But yeah, I'm hard pressed to see where DC villains are becoming anti-heroes, by in large. Harley and Poison Ivy are more of the exception than the rule.

Yeah...just giving some deep does not make them anti heroes, at all. Understanding evil does not means liking or siding with it.

[Baron of Faltine]

Yeah, but he isn't written like an antihero. Nor is he at all sympathetic.

Exactly. If anything else he is written like a bastard with cold grey heart. Is as far from sympathetic as you could be.

[Baron of Faltine]

The difference is that characters like Sinestro or Black Adam, what they WON'T do is as important as what they will do.

Depth and contradictions allow the writers to elevate the story and engage the reader.

Punisher villains, and those like them, are nothing more than adult cartoons at best. With a villain willing to anything, nothing is really that interesting.

Punishers, and similar characters, villains are often pushed to ridiculous almost Inhuman level of cretinesque villainy, because well they have either justify the hero brutality. And I think this is the main issue in this thread. When the villain is too human, the actions of the hero, if one of the deadly ones, become little hard to justify and seem bit of excessive if not outright cruel and sadistic. But if they are cartoonish abominations well everything is fine and dandy reading punisher just straightforward committing crimes against humanity against them.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Punishers, and similar characters, villains are often pushed to ridiculous almost Inhuman level of cretinesque villainy, because well they have either justify the hero brutality. And I think this is the main issue in this thread. When the villain is too human, the actions of the hero, if one of the deadly ones, become little hard to justify and seem bit of excessive if not outright cruel and sadistic. But if they are cartoonish abominations well everything is fine and dandy reading punisher just straightforward committing crimes against humanity against them.

Yes, God forbid we question Frank Castle's morality...

Meanwhile, that's every third story with Spider-Man, Captain America, Batman, Nightwing, Iron Man and literally every hero that doesn't employ lethal force on a regular basis.

[Agent Z]

Yes, God forbid we question Frank Castle's morality...

Meanwhile, that's every third story with Spider-Man, Captain America, Batman, Nightwing, Iron Man and literally every hero that doesn't employ lethal force on a regular basis.

I think that depends on what stories you are reading.

In my experience, we have a thousand stories questioning the morality of characters like Red Hood, Punisher or Huntress for every story that does the same to the likes of Captain America or Spider-Man.

[KurtW95]

Because there are a lot of writers who feel the need to redeem villains, which has been alright in very rare occasions but is a trope creators should avoid.

[BatmanJones]

People like seeing the good in bad people and the bad in good people.

Villains who are flawed and have good and bad qualities are compelling to read about because it makes them unpredictable and you don't know whats going to happen next.

Yes, and to repeat the old maxim, villains are always the heroes of their own stories.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think that depends on what stories you are reading.

In my experience, we have a thousand stories questioning the morality of characters like Red Hood, Punisher or Huntress for every story that does the same to the likes of Captain America or Spider-Man.

The difference is that we have Batman scolding Red Hood for killing, while trying to save the life of the Joker. The counter is usually "He'll escape and kill again."

And of course, Castle et all ARE RIGHT.

Granted, it's something that's weak sauce meta and only happens because of the medium, but they're right all the same. Acting with restraint is treated, within the context of the story, as weak and ineffective while in contrast, while innocents have ever suffered because of vigilantes who fire belt red machine guns?

I think Adrian Chase is the only one who didn't have such narrative protection...