Why are villains written like antiheroes these days.

[John Venus]

I have yet to see Frank Castle/Wolverine/Red Hood have their anti heroism get decontructed to the point where they are explicitly rendered ineffective heroes multiple times in canon. They are at best depicted as the 'Noble Savage', the hard man doing the hard thing so that others can supposedly sleep better at night. I haven't seen them being subjected to anything remotely close to something like Sean Gordon Murphy's White Knight series.

The whole 'Batman doesn't kill the Joker' horse has been to death, then beat some more until it turned into mush, then resurrected by a Lazarus Pit and then beaten some more, rinse and repeat. Injustice, most of Joker's appearances in the main line comics, 'Under the Red Hood', all follow this trope. What's worse is people buying into the whole bs conflict. To me it's too shallow a conflict to worth thinking over. It's writers trying to rehash the Killing Joke. The Joker appears and writers can tell only one story with him and that's sad. They've turned Joker one trick pony.

[Agent Z]

I haven't seen them being subjected to anything remotely close to something like Sean Gordon Murphy's White Knight series.

Wasn't Under the Red Hood that for Jason?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Wasn't Under the Red Hood that for Jason?

Was it?

Because Jason's who's beef was 'Just kill The Joker, only the Joker, because he'll kill again'.

Was he wrong?

Hell, in Countdown, they introduced a world where Batman went nuts after Jason's death, and started killing villains. The result?

A God damn paradise.

So yeah...

[Ra-El]

I have yet to see Frank Castle/Wolverine/Red Hood have their anti heroism get decontructed to the point where they are explicitly rendered ineffective heroes multiple times in canon. They are at best depicted as the 'Noble Savage', the hard man doing the hard thing so that others can supposedly sleep better at night. I haven't seen them being subjected to anything remotely close to something like Sean Gordon Murphy's White Knight series.

The whole 'Batman doesn't kill the Joker' horse has been to death, then beat some more until it turned into mush, then resurrected by a Lazarus Pit and then beaten some more, rinse and repeat. Injustice, most of Joker's appearances in the main line comics, 'Under the Red Hood', all follow this trope. What's worse is people buying into the whole bs conflict. To me it's too shallow a conflict to worth thinking over. It's writers trying to rehash the Killing Joke. The Joker appears and writers can tell only one story with him and that's sad. They've turned Joker one trick pony.

In the main Marvel Universe, Punisher does come off as you said, but in Punisher MAX, Castle himself knows what he does don't solve the real problems, he is not saving anyone, he isn't making justice he is just punishing the bad guys. Ennis also made clear that Frank always had in him not just the capacity to kill, but the desire to do it, his family dying only provided him with the war he wanted.

[Agent Z]

Was it?

Because Jason's who's beef was 'Just kill The Joker, only the Joker, because he'll kill again'.

Was he wrong?

Hell, in Countdown, they introduced a world where Batman went nuts after Jason's death, and started killing villains. The result?

A God damn paradise.

So yeah...

Yeah, but even then, Jason has never been depicted as a particularly effective hero in decades. Between his death, his reputation as the "failure Robin" and his long stint as a villain, he's largely been a punching bag for the writers who love milking his reputation as the most hated of the Robins (just look at how Grant Morrison wrote them in their run). Countdown isn't a high point for any character involved and the best you can say about that story is that Batman as a killer is more effective than Jason as a killer since Jason never created a paradise when he was killing villains.

[The Cool Thatguy]

In the main Marvel Universe, Punisher does come off as you said, but in Punisher MAX, Castle himself knows what he does don't solve the real problems, he is not saving anyone, he isn't making justice he is just punishing the bad guys. Ennis also made clear that Frank always had in him not just the capacity to kill, but the desire to do it, his family dying only provided him with the war he wanted.

Yeah, that's the usual lip service they use.

But in the Max series, anyone who tries to make the world a better place by doing anything other than resorting to mass murder is amazingly ineffective, naive or a butt monkey. Anyone who wants revenge on Castle for all the blood he's spilled is already a bastard of some kind.

So yeah, narrative shield at 100%.

[LordMikel]

The whole 'Batman doesn't kill the Joker' horse has been to death, then beat some more until it turned into mush, then resurrected by a Lazarus Pit and then beaten some more, rinse and repeat. Injustice, most of Joker's appearances in the main line comics, 'Under the Red Hood', all follow this trope. What's worse is people buying into the whole bs conflict. To me it's too shallow a conflict to worth thinking over. It's writers trying to rehash the Killing Joke. The Joker appears and writers can tell only one story with him and that's sad. They've turned Joker one trick pony.

Thank you for this depiction.

[Ra-El]

Yeah, that's the usual lip service they use.

But in the Max series, anyone who tries to make the world a better place by doing anything other than resorting to mass murder is amazingly ineffective, naive or a butt monkey. Anyone who wants revenge on Castle for all the blood he's spilled is already a bastard of some kind.

So yeah, narrative shield at 100%.

More or less. Is worthy remember that in the Max series there is no other heroes, no villains Frank Castle can't touch because he is from another franchise, no Daredevil to be called ineffective by him. This alone, imo, lessen a lot of the problems that comes along with have a character like the Punisher in the MU and not make him a villain.

One arc that comes to mind is the Slavers storyline. Frank kills a entire gang, he brutally kills them, but at the end, Garth Ennis makes sure of letting us know others are going through the same suffering and Castle didn't solved the problem at all. There is an social worker who, imo, is a great character, she knows the Punisher don't solve the real problem, she can see why what he does can be so seductive to normal citzens and by the end of the story she goes on helping people the way she can, not killing the bad guys, but doing her work.

And again, I don't think the Punisher work on the main Marvel Universe, he makes other heroes look bad and comes off himself as ineffective since it makes no sense he would let someone like Wilson Fisk alive. But, on his own corner Frank Castle can be a great character.