Zendaya's "MJ": Future as a Comics Character?

[Kevinroc]

Say MCU MJ is brought into comics… how long is the shelf life for a supporting civilian character from outside the Lee-Ditko-Romita era? They don’t become mainstays of the series too often do they?

Glory Grant is pretty much the only civilian character outside of the Lee-Ditko-Romita era to actually stick around for decades and decades.

[bat39]

I am one of those who is certainly not in favor of any of those things but Marvel/Disney is Hell Bent on having Peter as a kid no matter the cost, which is why the latest cartoon is a prequel to the films. Think about it: They are so opposed to him growing they are making him even younger. It is also why a prior cartoon had him in class with Miles ( to say that is NOT exactly canon is an understatement). It really should not be difficult: Miles for the teens and kids and Peter for the adults, but for some reason which is beyond my comprehension they want Peter as juvenile no matter what the majority want ( very much like you guessed it: OMD).

I think it's a lot to do with keeping the character in some real or imagined 'Golden Age'. For Spider-Man that's some variation of the Lee/Dikto/Romita era. The vast majority of adaptations draw from this era, including some of the most popular and iconic ones. The Raimi Spider-Man movies, Ultimate Spider-Man, the '67 Spider-Man cartoon (which was actually produced during this era) etc. And while it started with a focus on Peter as a college student, it's gradually morphed into a focus on him as a high-schooler (and a steadily younger high-schooler at that...Garfield's Peter was a high-school senior who was around 17-18, Holland's Peter was likely around 15-16 to begin with).

Say MCU MJ is brought into comics… how long is the shelf life for a supporting civilian character from outside the Lee-Ditko-Romita era? They don’t become mainstays of the series too often do they?

Honestly, how many characters outside of that era have become really famous outside of a hardcore comic-book fandom? How many story-arcs and concepts?

The Alien Costume Saga, Venom and Carnage? Hobgoblin (who's an extention of the Green Goblin mythos)? Miles Morales? Spider-Gwen? (The latter two now mostly because of the Into the Spider-Verse movie).

Peter Parker the high-school or college student who works for the Daily Bugle is more recognizable to casual fans across the globe than Peter Parker the industrialiast, or Peter Parker the high-school teacher. And Peter and MJ as young lovers trying to get together and/or make their relationship work is more recognizable than them as a married couple. Exponentially more people know about Flash Thompson than they know about, say, Carlie Cooper.

[NC_Yankee]

I think it's a lot to do with keeping the character in some real or imagined 'Golden Age'. For Spider-Man that's some variation of the Lee/Dikto/Romita era. The vast majority of adaptations draw from this era, including some of the most popular and iconic ones. The Raimi Spider-Man movies, Ultimate Spider-Man, the '67 Spider-Man cartoon (which was actually produced during this era) etc. And while it started with a focus on Peter as a college student, it's gradually morphed into a focus on him as a high-schooler (and a steadily younger high-schooler at that...Garfield's Peter was a high-school senior who was around 17-18, Holland's Peter was likely around 15-16 to begin with).



Honestly, how many characters outside of that era have become really famous outside of a hardcore comic-book fandom? How many story-arcs and concepts?

The Alien Costume Saga, Venom and Carnage? Hobgoblin (who's an extention of the Green Goblin mythos)? Miles Morales? Spider-Gwen? (The latter two now mostly because of the Into the Spider-Verse movie).

Peter Parker the high-school or college student who works for the Daily Bugle is more recognizable to casual fans across the globe than Peter Parker the industrialiast, or Peter Parker the high-school teacher. And Peter and MJ as young lovers trying to get together and/or make their relationship work is more recognizable than them as a married couple. Exponentially more people know about Flash Thompson than they know about, say, Carlie Cooper.

One thing that almost always improves a story is character growth ( I say almost because there are exceptions like the 3 Stooges). If you trace Peter from early Ditko to the Clone Saga there was constant character growth ( same for most of the other writers until the Slott Man-Child era followed by the Spencer Pathetic Parker. Marvel needs to stop the BS and get back to allowing Peter to grow.

[NC_Yankee]

Glory Grant is pretty much the only civilian character outside of the Lee-Ditko-Romita era to actually stick around for decades and decades.

Carlie says forgot me?

[Lee]

If your argument is she isn't "MJ" because of a brief look at a passport (we're talking a second or two at most) in FFH, that isn't much of an argument. For all intents and purposes, her name is "MJ". And a character with the name "MJ" in a Spider-Man story carries a lot of weight.

The reveal of the "MJ" name was a part of the climax of "Homecoming", and was used exclusively in FFH when other characters spoke to, or referred to, her. This was their way of trying to surprise audiences with their casting decision. This was their take on the "Face it, tiger" reveal.

You're arguing that Zendaya isn't playing the iconic Spider-Man love interest when you argue that her character should be disassociated from "MJ" despite the clear intention of the actors, writers, producers, and director of these films.

https://twitter.com/zendaya/status/1140799108841689088

Zendaya even tweeted this just a little while before the release of FFH. She knew exactly what she was doing. Her intentions are unambiguous.

I know. You're repeating the same points over and over again.

Michelle "MJ" Jones is a very loose adaptation of Mary Jane "MJ" Watson. So loose that I believe the two characters can co-exist in the comics. They did the same thing with Nick Fury, Yondu, Valkyrie and others. There is precedent for Marvel Comics doing this. Unless there's a rights issue with Sony, they could do the same thing with Michelle.

The solution to the "same nickname" problem is for her to simply be addressed as Michelle. That's a small concession to make. It solves the problem without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

An alternate solution is that they do address Michelle as MJ and going forward only address Mary Jane as Mary Jane.

It's a trivial and easily solvable problem.

Say MCU MJ is brought into comics… how long is the shelf life for a supporting civilian character from outside the Lee-Ditko-Romita era? They don’t become mainstays of the series too often do they?

Maybe Michelle would become a mainstay, maybe she wouldn't. Doesn't mean it isn't worth introducing her. If they get 50 years of stories out of her, then great. If they get 2 years of stories out of her, then hopefully they're good stories.

Glory Grant is pretty much the only civilian character outside of the Lee-Ditko-Romita era to actually stick around for decades and decades.

Dr. Ashley Kafka is appearing in Spider-Man comics right now.

[Kevinroc]

I know. You're repeating the same points over and over again.

Michelle "MJ" Jones is a very loose adaptation of Mary Jane "MJ" Watson. So loose that I believe the two characters can co-exist in the comics. They did the same thing with Nick Fury, Yondu, Valkyrie and others. There is precedent for Marvel Comics doing this. Unless there's a rights issue with Sony, they could do the same thing with Michelle.

The solution to the "same nickname" problem is for her to simply be addressed as Michelle. That's a small concession to make. It solves the problem without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

An alternate solution is that they do address Michelle as MJ and going forward only address Mary Jane as Mary Jane.

It's a trivial and easily solvable problem.

It's only a problem if you want to disassociate a Black actress from actually playing an iconic character. With the exception of Nick Fury (who was already associated with Sam Jackson due to Ultimate Fury), none of the characters you mentioned are anywhere near as important or iconic as MJ. Your argument that "maybe she'll become big and popular" goes against the grain of what happens with MCU characters coming to the comics.

You're essentially trying to create a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Maybe Michelle would become a mainstay, maybe she wouldn't. Doesn't mean it isn't worth introducing her. If they get 50 years of stories out of her, then great. If they get 2 years of stories out of her, then hopefully they're good stories.

Dr. Ashley Kafka is appearing in Spider-Man comics right now.

You mean the character who was killed and replaced with a clone? And who, Marvel themselves revealed, is spoilers:

about to be revealed as a supervillain?

end of spoilers

Carlie says forgot me?

We haven't seen her once in Beyond. (Carlie is very forgettable.)

[NC_Yankee]

It's only a problem if you want to disassociate a Black actress from actually playing an iconic character. With the exception of Nick Fury (who was already associated with Sam Jackson due to Ultimate Fury), none of the characters you mentioned are anywhere near as important or iconic as MJ. Your argument that "maybe she'll become big and popular" goes against the grain of what happens with MCU characters coming to the comics.

You're essentially trying to create a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.







You mean the character who was killed and replaced with a clone? And who, Marvel themselves revealed, is spoilers:

about to be revealed as a supervillain?

end of spoilers



We haven't seen her once in Beyond. (Carlie is very forgettable.)

I agree Carlie is Meh but she is still a civilian character post Ditko, Romita, Lee that has stuck around.

[NC_Yankee]

I know. You're repeating the same points over and over again.

Michelle "MJ" Jones is a very loose adaptation of Mary Jane "MJ" Watson. So loose that I believe the two characters can co-exist in the comics. They did the same thing with Nick Fury, Yondu, Valkyrie and others. There is precedent for Marvel Comics doing this. Unless there's a rights issue with Sony, they could do the same thing with Michelle.

The solution to the "same nickname" problem is for her to simply be addressed as Michelle. That's a small concession to make. It solves the problem without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

An alternate solution is that they do address Michelle as MJ and going forward only address Mary Jane as Mary Jane.

It's a trivial and easily solvable problem.



Maybe Michelle would become a mainstay, maybe she wouldn't. Doesn't mean it isn't worth introducing her. If they get 50 years of stories out of her, then great. If they get 2 years of stories out of her, then hopefully they're good stories.



Dr. Ashley Kafka is appearing in Spider-Man comics right now.

Michelle is NOT any kind of adaption of Mary Jane with the exception of the MJ initials. The personality and looks are quite different. I know there are those who choose to bring up the racial component of this but the best job of Mary Jane ( outside the comics and newspaper strip) was done by a woman of color: Zoe Kravitz in Into The Spider Verse. She got Mary Jane’s personality correctly (far superior to the sweet Kirsten Dunst).

[Kevinroc]

I agree Carlie is Meh but she is still a civilian character post Ditko, Romita, Lee that has stuck around.

She's only stuck around for one writer after her introduction in BND (Nick Spencer). Slott even wrote her out and we didn't see her again until Spencer. So it's kind of early to declare that she has "stuck around".

[Kevinroc]

Michelle is NOT any kind of adaption of Mary Jane with the exception of the MJ initials. The personality and looks are quite different. I know there are those who choose to bring up the racial component of this but the best job of Mary Jane ( outside the comics and newspaper strip) was done by a woman of color: Zoe Kravitz in Into The Spider Verse. She got Mary Jane’s personality correctly (far superior to the sweet Kirsten Dunst).

I hate how underdeveloped the characters and relationship are, but it's very clear what they were going for.

[NC_Yankee]

I hate how underdeveloped the characters and relationship are, but it's very clear what they were going for.

What Marvel/Sony did was awful. If you wanted to cast Zendaya, so they could have Peter date someone of color then they needed to make her someone other then MJ. Michelle Gonzalez or Glory Grant to name two easy examples. Obviously ms. Gonzalez was not exactly nice or popular in the comics, but with a little work she could have been improved ( see Felicia now compared to her beginning). But once again they punked out ( which they have a history of doing with Peter starting with Clone Saga).

[Kevinroc]

What Marvel/Sony did was awful. If you wanted to cast Zendaya, so they could have Peter date someone of color then they needed to make her someone other then MJ. Michelle Gonzalez or Glory Grant to name two easy examples. Obviously ms. Gonzalez was not exactly nice or popular in the comics, but with a little work she could have been improved ( see Felicia now compared to her beginning). But once again they punked out ( which they have a history of doing with Peter starting with Clone Saga).

There was nothing wrong with casting Zendaya as MJ. But they valued the "reveal" over everything else. So Peter goes from not caring at all about this girl to suddenly wanting to confess his love to her between movies with no explanation (and no, them doing an animated series later will not excuse this). People, by and large, don't care about Peter's romances with someone who isn't MJ (or Gwen, but we all know how that story goes. And now Spider-Gwen has totally supplanted love interest Gwen).

So PeterMJ is just another subpar underdeveloped MCU romance.

[marhawkman]

There was nothing wrong with casting Zendaya as MJ. But they valued the "reveal" over everything else. So Peter goes from not caring at all about this girl to suddenly wanting to confess his love to her between movies with no explanation (and no, them doing an animated series later will not excuse this). People, by and large, don't care about Peter's romances with someone who isn't MJ (or Gwen, but we all know how that story goes. And now Spider-Gwen has totally supplanted love interest Gwen).

So PeterMJ is just another subpar underdeveloped MCU romance.

I disagree on the grounds that the way Zendaya looks as "M.J." is well not recognizable as the comic book character MJ. they didn't even try really

[Mistah K88]

Glory Grant is pretty much the only civilian character outside of the Lee-Ditko-Romita era to actually stick around for decades and decades.

Yeah, I'll say Glory is a post Lee-Ditko-Romita character that gets action every now and then consistently, we don't see her all of the time, but she definitely isn't one of those characters who will completely disappear for a couple decades, only to be dusted off to be murder fodder for a new baddie. (If any comic creators read that...don't get any ideas, this trope is tired). I'd say her filling in a lighter Betty Brant shaped hole rather than being introduced as a Debra Whitman or Carlie Cooper love interest (Mary Jane competition), helps. Interestingly she was an aspiring model before just like Mary Jane was (which would explain why they decided to make the girls fast friends in the Spectacular animated series)

Honestly, how many characters outside of that era have become really famous outside of a hardcore comic-book fandom? How many story-arcs and concepts?

The Alien Costume Saga, Venom and Carnage? Hobgoblin (who's an extention of the Green Goblin mythos)? Miles Morales? Spider-Gwen? (The latter two now mostly because of the Into the Spider-Verse movie).

Peter Parker the high-school or college student who works for the Daily Bugle is more recognizable to casual fans across the globe than Peter Parker the industrialiast, or Peter Parker the high-school teacher. And Peter and MJ as young lovers trying to get together and/or make their relationship work is more recognizable than them as a married couple. Exponentially more people know about Flash Thompson than they know about, say, Carlie Cooper.

Yeah, a lot of the things that survive tend to have super powers...not too many civilians will get that action. Which is funny as Spider-Man has one of the best civilian casts in all of superhero comicdom.

Maybe Michelle would become a mainstay, maybe she wouldn't. Doesn't mean it isn't worth introducing her. If they get 50 years of stories out of her, then great. If they get 2 years of stories out of her, then hopefully they're good stories.

Eh, it'd be a hard sell, especially as a movie tie in character that as a civilian, would feel like she is jammed in...I mean there was a suggestion in this thread to make her a "friend of a friend" and that already creates distance for her. I suppose they can pull the "childhood friend that we have never heard of" angle to give her a connection to Peter if they want to make her a supporting character of Peter's. Though it might be easier to just toss her to Miles...as I feel he needs some more things that aren't hand me downs (...though I suppose MCU MJ being tossed to Miles would be another hand me down wouldn't it? Have Hobie Brown and Aaron Davis met?)

Dr. Ashley Kafka is appearing in Spider-Man comics right now.

She's definitely part of the dust off and kill crowd...

[Lee]

It's only a problem if you want to disassociate a Black actress from actually playing an iconic character. With the exception of Nick Fury (who was already associated with Sam Jackson due to Ultimate Fury), none of the characters you mentioned are anywhere near as important or iconic as MJ. Your argument that "maybe she'll become big and popular" goes against the grain of what happens with MCU characters coming to the comics.

You're essentially trying to create a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I don't think we should be treating Nick Fury as an exception. I think we should be treating Nick Fury as an example of this working, because it did.

If Michelle is a new and distinct character then she should be in the comics alongside Mary Jane Watson. If Michelle is the modern version of Mary Jane Watson, then she should be in the comics and the old version should be phased out. If it's really such a bad idea to have two characters with the same initials co-existing, then they should move forward with the modern version.

I think there's room for both though.

I think regardless of what they do or don't do with the core comics continuity, Marvel should publish a "Spider-Man Loves MJ" style series with an MCU inspired MJ/Michelle, aimed tween/teen girls.

I don't think introducing Michelle into the comics would have a negative impact on the Spider-Man movies' box office, streaming, or home video earnings. I think it would give the comics a fun new character to utilise and make the comics a little more welcoming for anyone coming in from the movies.

You mean the character who was killed and replaced with a clone? And who, Marvel themselves revealed, is spoilers:

about to be revealed as a supervillain?

end of spoilers

Irrelevant. She's an example of a character who stuck around for multiple decades, even before she was killed off. Maybe they'll still be using her in the 2030s.

I don't think this matters though. Kafka would have been a worthwhile character even if she never appeared after DeMatteis' original Spectacular Spider-Man run. A worthwhile character can be one who appears in 25 issues, 250 issues or 1 issue.

I think it would be a bad idea to cease the introduction of new characters out of fear that they won't have staying power.

Eh, it'd be a hard sell, especially as a movie tie in character that as a civilian, would feel like she is jammed in...I mean there was a suggestion in this thread to make her a "friend of a friend" and that already creates distance for her. I suppose they can pull the "childhood friend that we have never heard of" angle to give her a connection to Peter if they want to make her a supporting character of Peter's. Though it might be easier to just toss her to Miles...as I feel he needs some more things that aren't hand me downs (...though I suppose MCU MJ being tossed to Miles would be another hand me down wouldn't it? Have Hobie Brown and Aaron Davis met?)

Friend of a friend isn't the best idea. She should be one of Peter's classmates at university. If they want to work in some history, then maybe they also went to middle school together. We haven't seen much of Peter's life pre high school. But that isn't really necessary, it's cleaner to introduce her in the here and now.

I don't think she should be a cast member in Miles Morales' series. The movie Michelle/MJ is part of Peter's supporting cast, she has no connection to Miles. It would come across as putting them in the same book because they're both black/mixed race. It's better to have a clear distinction between Peter's cast/villains and Miles' cast/villains.