Zendaya's "MJ": Future as a Comics Character?

[Mister Mets]

Yeah, adaptations try to do their own thing anyway, as they have the advantage of seeing what works and what doesn't with decades of history (and they can plan things that were eventually retconned in advance to work in a cohesive way[which is why I was REALLY excited about the Spectacular animated series take on the Hobgoblin saga]). However, I wouldn't want comics to force things from adaptations into comics if they can't make it work in a cohesive way. Sure elseworlds can do that since, like adaptations they can kind of do whatever they want, and in the long run, whatever happens in them don't matter too much as they won't affect the main series.

It can go both ways.

If some works in the movies, it may be worth trying in the comics.

One important thing is that this should be something the writer and artist want to try.

Content with this iteration of the character exists (such as Funko pops), and will continue to exist for some time to come (such as the animated Disney+ prequel series). But what you are asking for seems very difficult because you are talking about treating a supporting civilian character and trying to raise them to the level of a co-protagonist. At the end of the day, this is still Peter's story. People are here to see Peter.

Yes, Mary Jane has had her own spotlight stories. She's not going to get her own film series or her own animated series. Her ultimate role in the story is to be a supporting character for Peter. And that's the case at least 9.9/10 times.

This is why people should advocate for content that revolves around characters who are the heroes of their own story.

There are going to be different types of stories.

We can have Silk, Shuri and Ironheart as protagonists who are women/ girls of color. But there are also stories from the perspective of people who aren't superheroes.

Some Spider-Man stories have been quite successful turning the woman in his life into a colead, and that's worth doing in the comics going forward, just as it worked in some of the comics (Kraven's Last Hunt, Ultimate Spider-Man, the end of the Harry Osborn saga)

[Kevinroc]

There are going to be different types of stories.

We can have Silk, Shuri and Ironheart as protagonists who are women/ girls of color. But there are also stories from the perspective of people who aren't superheroes.

Some Spider-Man stories have been quite successful turning the woman in his life into a colead, and that's worth doing in the comics going forward, just as it worked in some of the comics (Kraven's Last Hunt, Ultimate Spider-Man, the end of the Harry Osborn saga)

I don't know how to tell you this, so I'll just tell you. Those stories only work as they do because they all had Mary Jane in that role, aka The Iconic Spider-Man Love Interest. You know, the character created by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and John Romita, Sr.

[Jman27]

I don't know how to tell you this, so I'll just tell you. Those stories only work as they do because they all had Mary Jane in that role, aka The Iconic Spider-Man Love Interest. You know, the character created by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and John Romita, Sr.

yeah because they try with MJ. If they didn't try we wouldn't get those stories. someone has to try

[Kevinroc]

yeah because they try with MJ. If they didn't try we wouldn't get those stories. someone has to try

They had 10 years after OMD. And none of those relationships meant a thing or left any impact on the franchise. It's just not going to happen.

People need to accept that.

* If you're going to argue Silk, she didn't start to get bigger until after she split up from Peter. Their actual relationship was so hated that Slott took to twitter to apologize for it.

https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1393703488543203329

https://twitter.com/danslott/status/1393711895148961797

I've heard people's problems with my initial Silk stories.
I've heard many valid points.
I've said those story choices were a mistake on my part (and no one else: editor, artist, etc).
I apologize for not understanding the problems those choices could cause.
I am sorry for that.

Listening to reactions, especially from Asian readers, overtime I grew to understand how those initial stories unintentionally played into racial stereotypes.
When Nick and Robbie chose to remove those elements from the character, like everyone else, I was greatly relieved...
1/2

...so let me say this emphatically, and in no uncertain terms, I am sorry that I initially, and ignorantly, wrote the story that way, and if I could go back and do it again, I would do it differently.

I apologize and I am sorry.
2/2

[Mister Mets]

I don't know how to tell you this, so I'll just tell you. Those stories only work as they do because they all had Mary Jane in that role, aka The Iconic Spider-Man Love Interest. You know, the character created by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and John Romita, Sr.

Here's where I disagree on several levels.

The Amazing Spider-Man movies had Gwen Stacy as a co-lead.

Some of the stories with Mary Jane as a co-lead could be done with someone else. Let's consider what made the character created by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko and John Romita Sr special, beyond her physical appearance? What distinguishes her from other comic book characters?

We don't necessarily see evidence of that in Kraven's Last Hunt, Zendaya's version of the character or Brainy Jane from Ultimate Spider-Man? It's essentially generic love interest.

If we compare it to the best Superman stories, those would be tough to tell with another superhero.
"For the Man Who Has Everything" depends on Superman's loss for Krypton.
All-Star Superman and "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" build on various aspects of his rich history.
Superman For All Seasons explores his connections to small-town America and the big city.
"What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?" pit Superman against modern darker heroes, ending with a reminder that it is a good thing that Superman maintains his extraordinary self-control.

[Kevinroc]

Here's where I disagree on several levels.

The Amazing Spider-Man movies had Gwen Stacy as a co-lead.

Some of the stories with Mary Jane as a co-lead could be done with someone else. Let's consider what made the character created by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko and John Romita Sr special, beyond her physical appearance? What distinguishes her from other comic book characters?

We don't necessarily see evidence of that in Kraven's Last Hunt, Zendaya's version of the character or Brainy Jane from Ultimate Spider-Man? It's essentially generic love interest.

If we compare it to the best Superman stories, those would be tough to tell with another superhero.
"For the Man Who Has Everything" depends on Superman's loss for Krypton.
All-Star Superman and "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" build on various aspects of his rich history.
Superman For All Seasons explores his connections to small-town America and the big city.
"What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?" pit Superman against modern darker heroes, ending with a reminder that it is a good thing that Superman maintains his extraordinary self-control.

Considering the ASM movies crashed and burned, and Sony made that deal with Marvel to make Spider-Man films, I don't really think that's the defense you think it is.

People don't care who Peter's love interest is if it isn't MJ. We just saw that play out over 10 years after OMD. People didn't care about any of them. And at this point it's too late to create a new love interest to supplant MJ.

[Lee]

I don't know how to tell you this, so I'll just tell you. Those stories only work as they do because they all had Mary Jane in that role, aka The Iconic Spider-Man Love Interest. You know, the character created by Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and John Romita, Sr.

People don't care who Peter's love interest is if it isn't MJ.

So are Michelle/MJ and Mary Jane the same character or not? If Michelle/MJ is a different character then she can be introduced into the mainline comics and exist alongside Mary Jane. If Michelle/MJ is a modernised Mary Jane, then she's already an iconic character and can be a protagonist/co-star in out of continuity projects to the same extent the white version was.

[marhawkman]

Considering the ASM movies crashed and burned, and Sony made that deal with Marvel to make Spider-Man films, I don't really think that's the defense you think it is.

People don't care who Peter's love interest is if it isn't MJ. We just saw that play out over 10 years after OMD. People didn't care about any of them. And at this point it's too late to create a new love interest to supplant MJ.

OMD wasn't as simple as people not liking the replacement, it was also because the way she got replaced was f-ed up. So the replacement process was part of the problem.

[Kevinroc]

So are Michelle/MJ and Mary Jane the same character or not? If Michelle/MJ is a different character then she can be introduced into the mainline comics and exist alongside Mary Jane. If Michelle/MJ is a modernised Mary Jane, then she's already an iconic character and can be a protagonist/co-star in out of continuity projects to the same extent the white version was.

It's pretty clear the intention is that she's a variant MJ. You hoping she gets used to the same extent as the original is just not going to happen.

OMD wasn't as simple as people not liking the replacement, it was also because the way she got replaced was f-ed up. So the replacement process was part of the problem.

Didn't help. But the fact is that Peter x MJ is so famous that Marvel tried to surprise audiences with the casting of Zendaya's "Michelle/MJ" at the end of Homecoming. And it's why Amazing Spider-Man 1 didn't have MJ at all (since nobody would take the relationship with Gwen seriously if MJ were around).

[Lee]

It's pretty clear the intention is that she's a variant MJ. You hoping she gets used to the same extent as the original is just not going to happen.

So what's the problem? You have your favorite version of MJ and you're confident that she won't be replaced, so why are you so dead set against an MCU inspired MJ appearing in any form of comic?

Marvel/DC do comics that complement the current TV/movies/games all the time. Why is the idea of a Spider-Man comic with an MCU inspired MJ so offensive to you?

[Kevinroc]

So what's the problem? You have your favorite version of MJ and you're confident that she won't be replaced, so why are you so dead set against an MCU inspired MJ appearing in any form of comic?

Marvel/DC do comics that complement the current TV/movies/games all the time. Why is the idea of a Spider-Man comic with an MCU inspired MJ so offensive to you?

I don't really care if future films or video games or AU comics want to depict a Black MJ.

It's the MCU-inspired touch that I find offensive because I hate MCU Spider-Man. The less inspiration future iterations of Spider-Man take from the MCU depictions, the better.

Edit: Why is it so important that the MCU inspired take on Spidey's world is depicted going forward? Do you want to see Peter Parker hero worship Tony Stark?

[Lee]

So you've been arguing against it simply because you personally don't like it.

If Marvel make Spider-Man and/or MJ comics aimed at kids familiar with the MCU movies, then you can just not buy them. Not every Spider-Man product is going to be aimed at grown men.

[Kevinroc]

So you've been arguing against it simply because you personally don't like it.

If Marvel make Spider-Man and/or MJ comics aimed at kids familiar with the MCU movies, then you can just not buy them. Not every Spider-Man product is going to be aimed at grown men.

I'm saying I don't personally expect "Michelle" to become the dominant or even equal depiction of MJ going forward. This seems to offend you greatly. Why is that?

[Lee]

No, you've been arguing that Marvel SHOULDN'T use Michelle/MJ.

I think they should because Spider-Man is primarily for kids and there should be Spider-Man comics that are welcoming for new readers. I think there are girls in the world who are Spider-Man fans and relate to Zendaya's MJ. I think that character should be there for them in the comics, that a white MJ who has nothing in common with the MCU version won't cut it.

I'm reminded of when Marvel announced the Mary Jane mini-series (the precursor to Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane) in 2004 there were the usual angry comments online - "Why is this out of continuity?", "Why isn't this about the REAL Mary Jane?", "Girls don't even read comics!". But the series wasn't for grown men who'd been reading Spider-Man for decades. It was for girls who liked the Spider-Man movies and related to Kirsten Dunst's MJ.

[Kevinroc]

No, you've been arguing that Marvel SHOULDN'T use Michelle/MJ.

I think they should because Spider-Man is primarily for kids and there should be Spider-Man comics that are welcoming for new readers. I think there are girls in the world who are Spider-Man fans and relate to Zendaya's MJ. I think that character should be there for them in the comics, that a white MJ who has nothing in common with the MCU version won't cut it.

I'm reminded of when Marvel announced the Mary Jane mini-series (the precursor to Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane) in 2004 there were the usual angry comments online - "Why is this out of continuity?", "Why isn't this about the REAL Mary Jane?", "Girls don't even read comics!". But the series wasn't for grown men who'd been reading Spider-Man for decades. It was for girls who liked the Spider-Man movies and related to Kirsten Dunst's MJ.

I'm arguing that such corporate synergy doesn't transfer to sales. As we have seen time and again over the years. If your only argument is that the comics should be more like the MCU, that argument doesn't hold water. Peter Parker isn't even the guy in the suit in Amazing Spider-Man currently. The big new MCU Spider-Man film is about to open, and Ben Reilly is currently the character headlining the main title.

Spider-Man just made his debut in Fortnite (one of the biggest games in the world), and we have learned that "Mary Jane" will appear as an NPC. (Source: https://twitter.com/ShiinaBR/status/1468378445558210564)

And as I noted previously, DC Comics is not currently publishing a "Legends of Tomorrow" comic book series despite the show currently being on its seventh season. (They published a LoT comic back in 2016 when the first season was on. It ended around the time the second season premiered. There has been no LoT comic since as far as I can tell.)

Again, my argument is "do girls of color want to see themselves as the girlfriend to a white hero? Or do they want to see themselves as a hero" and have advocated for the publication of titles about people of color as the heroes. Because I don't expect MCU MJ to be the equal of, or to supplant, the traditionally white MJ in media depictions. (Not saying it's not going to happen in future media adaptations.)