X-MEN #5 Review *spoilers*

[Spiderfan001]

Speaking from personal experience, as someone who was coaxed and forced out of the closet at sixteen by the two people closest to me (my best friend insisted she knew I was gay, while my mother found out I was gay after reading a private letter to said best friend), for me, the consequences were fearful denial, followed by extreme anger, followed by a feeling of hollowness, which lasted a few days and is hard to describe, and, finally, resulting in an overwhelming sense of relief. As Bobby admitted to Jean after she told him she knew he was gay, "I really thought I was crazy." Living in the closet certainly made me feel that way, too.

I hope you realize someone finding out is different from Telepathically entering your mind and getting info.Also Jean isn't Bobby's Mom, Mom's looking out for Kids because they can tell something is up is far different than what Jean did.My Parents have done the same lol, helped me through some stuff(mental health related) and if a friend did that I'd be pissed.

She doesn't have the rights to do that, she's not his parent.And the way she handled it shows she's not ready for it yet.She didn't help him, you don't help someone by cornering them and making them admit something that they are not ready to.The trauma and regression from that would be insane, but again thus is just being used this to make the change abruptly instead of actually attempting a nuanced story.

"Also, lol, Jean did not "help" Bobby come out of the closet, she cornered a friend and forced them to admit their sexuality. It was one of the most tone deaf and awkward sequence of panels I've ever had to read. A shining example of a thing NEVER to do to a closeted person."

My thoughts exactly.I don't want to think about what I could have done if someone confronted me like this(and Bobby's case seems far more sensitive than mine tbh

The fact that my own emergence from the closet so closely mirrors Bobby's is why I am fond of this scene and get annoyed when people try to contort it into something that it wasn't (i.e., she didn't out him to others). While I was initially angry at both my best friend and especially my mother, I don't classify what either of them did as morally ambiguous because they love me and only wanted me to know that 1) they would accept me for who I am and 2) I didn't have to hide my truth and suffer alone in silence as a result. Of course, objectively, I can understand why others would criticize them for doing what they did, but, after a certain point, I would undoubtedly and rather strongly come to their defense.

Again intention behind actions isn't what we're calling morally ambiguous.The action itself is what we're talking about.An highly exaggerated parallel to make the point clearer.So many "villains" have good "intentions" yet do horrible things to achieve them.

Watchmen shows this for one, the British show Utopia's Network is the same.

Both good intentions, heck the best ones but we can tell their actions were wrong.

The point being intentions don't justify actions, or shouldn't.

(I'm not saying Jean's case is remotely close in magnitude to these, it's just to have a clearer example of good/great motives and intentions don't justify wrong actions)

Bobby reacted in much the same way I did, except that his anger towards Jean lasted longer and was expressed over the course of years, in more than one issue. Moreover, the positive consequences of Jean's actions were honestly and beautifully expressed on the page below because that's exactly how I would feel now if forced to "go back":

My point is exactly, this was just an example I used for it.

It's the "it worked out in the end"/"we made it"/"I'm better off because of what you did" trope.A character makes a choice that wasn't there's to make and yet it works out in a way that justifies the choice.

Like stealing someone's car and then said person's place of work was blown up.It makes the Car stealing look good when it wasn't a good thing.(I already addressed why intentions aren't relevant.And again it's hyperbole.)
Point is a negative actions leads to a bigger positive and thus the negative action is justified because of it

It's not this case in particular, it's the fact it happens so much that makes it annoying to me.

Actually, I agree with you here. More importantly, in hindsight, though I like the intent with which Jean acted, I don't think the scene was fleshed out enough to make sense, considering how the election has been depicted thus far. Based on the speeches that have come before - namely, Shiro's and Jean's - it is my understanding that each candidate gave a speech and listed their reasons for wanting to be picked for the team prior to everyone casting their vote. It doesn't seem realistic that Lorna would be elected to the team after simply saying "pick me," unless Duggan intended to imply/underscore her popularity, i.e., that people overwhelmingly voted for her despite the fact that she didn't give a petition speech for a spot on the team.

100% agreed on this.Jean didn't have any bad intent in most of her cases if not all and Lorna's doubt and speech should have been shown.

In either case, Duggan could have simply inserted Lorna's impromptu speech after Jean pushed her to say "pick me," and maybe even had her start the speech by saying something to the effect of, "You know, I almost withdrew my name from consideration, but a friend pushed me to say 'pick me.'" This brings me to another point: Duggan wrote this scene in a way that contradicts both the fact that Lorna was already in consideration for the team - she was one of the ten official candidates people were asked to vote for - and Zeb Wells' Five Minutes Later strips, in which those ten candidates were depicted in scenes before and after voting ended.

Again agreed on all accounts.

It's unfortunate that this scene is inconsistent with how the election has been depicted thus far and that it not only cost Lorna a proper speech but has also resulted in criticism of and attacks on Jean. Of course, it's clear that some of those criticisms and attacks are based on ulterior motives and are coming from those who dislike Jean as a character for various reasons outside of moral ambiguity. (Hell, you have one particularly obnoxious poster on here who turned on Jean after saying she was one of their favorite characters all because their favorite character isn't featured in this series as prominently as they would like and also because I wouldn't cosign their bordering-on-racist attacks on Ororo.)

Agreed again

To be fair, Jean hasn't participated in many moments like these; however, when she has, she has received blowback in the books. Iceman read her pretty vehemently after she told him she knew he was gay, and when she tried changing Warren's mind in All-New X-Men, Emma and the Cuckoos telepathically attacked her. Then again, as I noted, she hasn't been in more than a handful of these types of scenes.

Again I agree, it's the "all's well that end's well" stuff I wish we don't see a lot more of.These "morally ambiguous" decisions should be allowed to have negative consequences so atleast there's some contrast and glee of when we get the positive ones.

The blowback has always been heavy on Jean(despite or more likely because she's always been seen as the "good girl" Telepath of the bunch), and I don't want her character bashed more and more.It's the actual in-story (negative)consequences(to the character who were on the receiving side) I'm talking about.

Again, I agree with you on this. This could have easily been done had Duggan written a speech for Lorna. She should have been allowed to express why she was going to withdraw her name for consideration, followed by why her first impulse was to say "pick me."

I feel some resentment of Jean on this thread is also because they feel Duggan may have stolen some light from Lorna to have the Jean TP swap thing.I mostly disagree and I think he just wrote this completely wrong.

Reminds me of when Bendis wrote New Avengers as Luke Cage starring Jessica jones(and Ronin) and hey look the Avengers are here as well.He nerfed the ever living f*ck out of Strange(can't even land a plane lmfao) and made it seem like Peter didn't even know Osborn to put all the focus on Luke Cage(and Ronin).Again it's not as bad since Cage is a POC and they are usually the ones of the backburner on teams.

But I still feel so much lesser about that run because of how Peter and Strange were treated.

[Mercury]

I hope you realize someone finding out is different from Telepathically entering your mind and getting info.Also Jean isn't Bobby's Mom, Mom's looking out for Kids because they can tell something is up is far different than what Jean did.My Parents have done the same lol, helped me through some stuff(mental health related) and if a friend did that I'd be pissed.

My mother actually entered my room and rummaged through my belongings, which is how she found the letter I had written to my best friend. I was a well-behaved teenager, so she had no reason to snoop through my room. In either case, while I was angry at her at the time, in hindsight, I'm glad that she found the letter. I can't say for sure how long it would have taken me to come out to her. As for my best friend, I'm happy that she was pushy, stubborn, and cared for me enough to get me to come out.

Furthermore, based on how Jean has described her telepathy since the 1970s - she has to exert a great amount of effort to keep people's thoughts out of her mind - I don't believe she entered Bobby's mind to get info. I think his thoughts were very clear to her without her trying to read them. Moreover, it is important to note that during that time, i.e., the O5's time-displacement, Jean had just become aware of her telepathic powers, which Xavier had been suppressing. She was a novice, albeit an extremely powerful telepath from the very beginning.

She tells Rogue in the panel above, "I have to use my power to constantly maintain a telepathic cocoon, shielding myself from the chaos of the millions of minds around me and protecting them from the psychokinetic devastation that power can unleash." Again, considering the fact that she was still a telepathic novice when she picked up Bobby's thoughts, I think it's safe to say that she didn't purposefully invade his mind but simply picked up what he was thinking.

She doesn't have the rights to do that, she's not his parent.And the way she handled it shows she's not ready for it yet.She didn't help him, you don't help someone by cornering them and making them admit something that they are not ready to.The trauma and regression from that would be insane, but again thus is just being used this to make the change abruptly instead of actually attempting a nuanced story.

Again, I don't think she picked up Bobby's thoughts purposefully. When All-New X-Men dropped, thirty-plus years prior, it had been established that it takes great effort for Jean to block out others' thoughts--and that's when she was already an adult. During the first years of the O5's time-displacement, Jean was 12-15 years old. At that age, teenagers are still learning about morals, boundaries, and social etiquette. Add to that the fact that she was still learning about her newfound telepathy, had endured trauma herself by having revealed to her decades worth of future tragedies and deaths in the span of seconds, and I think it's logical to assume she was both unaware of what she was doing and emotionally compromised.

Again intention behind actions isn't what we're calling morally ambiguous.The action itself is what we're talking about...It's the "it worked out in the end"/"we made it"/"I'm better off because of what you did" trope.A character makes a choice that wasn't there's to make and yet it works out in a way that justifies the choice...it's the fact it happens so much that makes it annoying to me.

Oh, I totally understand and relate to this sentiment, believe me. I was debating someone on Twitter via DM about the Jean and Bobby scene. He asked, "Did she ever apologize to Bobby for violating him?" I said yes and followed with my own question: "Did Emma Frost ever apologize to Jean for telepathically bombarding her when she was a teenager with romantic/sexual memories of her and Scott together? Did she ever apologize for taking over teenage Scott's mind to "make him the man he is supposed to be?" He responded, "Oh, that's just Emma. Besides, she was teaching them a lesson." /dead

The blowback has always been heavy on Jean(despite or more likely because she's always been seen as the "good girl" Telepath of the bunch), and I don't want her character bashed more and more.It's the actual in-story (negative)consequences(to the character who were on the receiving side) I'm talking about.

Frankly, "the blowback" has bordered on pathological. Then again, I understand it. After all, Jean is the first X-Woman, Xavier's first student, Marvel's first telekinetic and telekinetic/telepathic character, and is central to one of the most iconic storylines (the Dark Phoenix Saga) in comic book history. And though she has a temper, can make morally ambiguous decisions (e.g., telepathically killing MeMe), and can be downright ferocious when pushed into a corner, overall, she is empathic, altruistic, and selfless. She's both an easy target and a character some people feel compelled to knock down a few pegs.

I feel some resentment of Jean on this thread is also because they feel Duggan may have stolen some light from Lorna to have the Jean TP swap thing.I mostly disagree and I think he just wrote this completely wrong.

Interestingly enough, Lorna's fans have been the most objective, open-minded, and positive about the matter. Then again, most of them are very much aware of Jean and Lorna's long history together. After all, they were the first X-Women.

[Kingdom X]

I think it’s equally valid to like or dislike Bobby’s coming out, because everyone’s coming out is different. If my coming out had resembled the Bendis sequence at all i surely would have cut that person off. But that’s me and it’s okay it’s okay if someone else’s experience is different.

[Sylarmax]

The problem is not the team, is Duggan.

Agreed With this . The team it's ok

[Sylarmax]

Rogue: "Jean, we need to talk."
Jean: "Hey, Ana! What's up?"
Rogue: "Actually, I'd really like to talk about those last minute rewrites you keep shov..."
Jean: "Good! I can always use a cardboard cuto... I mean, a good friend and former apprentice with whom I have such a rich and complex history to stand there and agree with everything I say. Blue Team for life, am I right?"
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "That is absolutely not how it..."
Jean: "So what do you think of the 'Rogue gets to pretend she's important for a whole maybe but not really ten pages' episode? I went all in with the punching and one-liners."
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "Fine, the punching and one-liners are objectively coo..."
Jean: "I knew it. I always do."
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "But then you kind of just show up out of nowhere and start going on about how you taught me everything, how proud you are of me and how you just know one day I'll be a great lea..."
Jean: "I know, right? It'll be a great character moment for you."
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "The script literally says 'Gently shove Rogue out of focus and make this about yourself, but be slick about it.''"
Jean: "......................................"
Rogue: "......................................"
Jean: "Rogue, don't be like that. I *deserve* this."
Rogue: "I'm not Lorna. The Care Bear Stare isn't going to work."
Jean: "......................................"
Rogue: "......................................"
Jean: "Tell you what, Ana, I still haven't decided whether I'll bench Scott or turn him into a plant. I could always swap your character arcs, if you'd like."
Rogue: "......................................"
Jean: "......................................"
Rogue: "I'll show up on time and give it my 110%. Hail Jean."

XD hahahahaha you made me the afternoon the day and the whole week with this XD. xD XD XD

The worst of all is that I see that something similar could happen lol, this book has been horrible unfortunately, it has a good cast, but Duggan is unable to properly handle a team book.
The same happened in UAvengers, the fans of the other avengers lived complaining, obviously I did not protest so much because the star and main focus was Rogue, but karma returned and now I have to endure the boring monologues of JeanZzzz lol, since Duggan decided that in this book the star should be her X_x.
On the positive side, this book is only designed for 12 issues only, after this either the whole team or a large part of it is out, or there is a change in writer, both options seem excellent to me.

[Rev9]

Rogue: "Jean, we need to talk."
Jean: "Hey, Ana! What's up?"
Rogue: "Actually, I'd really like to talk about those last minute rewrites you keep shov..."
Jean: "Good! I can always use a cardboard cuto... I mean, a good friend and former apprentice with whom I have such a rich and complex history to stand there and agree with everything I say. Blue Team for life, am I right?"
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "That is absolutely not how it..."
Jean: "So what do you think of the 'Rogue gets to pretend she's important for a whole maybe but not really ten pages' episode? I went all in with the punching and one-liners."
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "Fine, the punching and one-liners are objectively coo..."
Jean: "I knew it. I always do."
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "But then you kind of just show up out of nowhere and start going on about how you taught me everything, how proud you are of me and how you just know one day I'll be a great lea..."
Jean: "I know, right? It'll be a great character moment for you."
Rogue: "......................................"
Rogue: "The script literally says 'Gently shove Rogue out of focus and make this about yourself, but be slick about it.''"
Jean: "......................................"
Rogue: "......................................"
Jean: "Rogue, don't be like that. I *deserve* this."
Rogue: "I'm not Lorna. The Care Bear Stare isn't going to work."
Jean: "......................................"
Rogue: "......................................"
Jean: "Tell you what, Ana, I still haven't decided whether I'll bench Scott or turn him into a plant. I could always swap your character arcs, if you'd like."
Rogue: "......................................"
Jean: "......................................"
Rogue: "I'll show up on time and give it my 110%. Hail Jean."

Frighteningly hilarious..if there is such a thing

[Mercury]

I think it’s equally valid to like or dislike Bobby’s coming out, because everyone’s coming out is different.

This is fair and I can agree with it.

If my coming out had resembled the Bendis sequence at all i surely would have cut that person off. But that’s me and it’s okay it’s okay if someone else’s experience is different.

In my case, I felt extremely angry at both my best friend and mother. I accused them of violating my privacy and personal autonomy. However, as my sense of relief grew and it dawned on me that my sexuality didn't change how either of them thought or felt about me - in fact, they made it a point of telling me over and over how brave they thought I was - my anger dissipated.

Once the initial anger subsides, it's hard for me to imagine anyone staying angry with someone - a best friend, parent, or sibling, which, in essence, is what Jean and Bobby were to each other - for too long. How does one arrive at a point where they can say, "I feel relief. I am finally able to be open and honest about myself. But I still hate you and never want to speak to you again for pushing me to do it"? I suppose it's possible, but since it's not how that situation unfolded for me, I can't relate.

[Mercury]

P.S. The other key point that made a world of difference is that neither my mother nor best friend pushed me to come out to anyone else. In fact, they insisted that I officially come out when I was good and ready, just like Jean did to Bobby.



It's also important to note that the infamous scene between Jean and Bobby was a callback to a scene between the two from the 1990s, during which the editors were considering revealing that Bobby was gay (something that had been under consideration since the 1980s), but never got around to it because, even back then, being a part of the LGBTQ+ community wasn't as widely accepted and, in many cases, frowned upon. This scene also serves to contrast Jean's lack of boundaries and control over her powers as an emotionally compromised teenager with her awareness of and respect for boundaries and full control over her powers as an adult. (Frankly, it is parallels and contradictions like these, which are peppered throughout Jean's long history in comics, that make her such a fascinating and nuanced character. Her history comprises myriad moments, both good and bad, that reveal a character that seems real and relatable.)

[Kingdom X]

This is fair and I can agree with it.



In my case, I felt extremely angry at both my best friend and mother. I accused them of violating my privacy and personal autonomy. However, as my sense of relief grew and it dawned on me that my sexuality didn't change how either of them thought or felt about me - in fact, they made it a point of telling me over and over how brave they thought I was - my anger dissipated.

Once the initial anger subsides, it's hard for me to imagine anyone staying angry with someone - a best friend, parent, or sibling, which, in essence, is what Jean and Bobby were to each other - for too long. How does one arrive at a point where they can say, "I feel relief. I am finally able to be open and honest about myself. But I still hate you and never want to speak to you again for pushing me to do it"? I suppose it's possible, but since it's not how that situation unfolded for me, I can't relate.

I can definitely see why you like it and identify with it!

I think there's also the fact that so many people's coming out focuses on self-discovery and figuring out how they identify themselves.

The article below touches on it, but the Bendis scene is essentially a bisexual's (or someone who is still figuring out labels) nightmare. Jean not only tells him that he's queer but also tells him exactly how he has to identify. A lot of bisexual and/ or sexually fluid people (which is a huge percentage of the LGBTQ+ community) have a viscerally negative reaction to the scene, because it reads as a straight person sticking a label and a box onto a queer person. In-universe it makes sense because Jean is a telepath but once you translate it to real life, it's a BIG no-no

https://www.xplainthexmen.com/2015/0...-new-x-men-40/

[Spiderfan001]

My mother actually entered my room and rummaged through my belongings, which is how she found the letter I had written to my best friend. I was a well-behaved teenager, so she had no reason to snoop through my room. In either case, while I was angry at her at the time, in hindsight, I'm glad that she found the letter. I can't say for sure how long it would have taken me to come out to her. As for my best friend, I'm happy that she was pushy, stubborn, and cared for me enough to get me to come out.

Again she's your Mom.Jean isn't his Mom, nor does she have the rights a mother would.
I'm glad it worked out for you but if someone did this to me I'd distance myself from them.

Furthermore, based on how Jean has described her telepathy since the 1970s - she has to exert a great amount of effort to keep people's thoughts out of her mind - I don't believe she entered Bobby's mind to get info. I think his thoughts were very clear to her without her trying to read them. Moreover, it is important to note that during that time, i.e., the O5's time-displacement, Jean had just become aware of her telepathic powers, which Xavier had been suppressing. She was a novice, albeit an extremely powerful telepath from the very beginning.

She tells Rogue in the panel above, "I have to use my power to constantly maintain a telepathic cocoon, shielding myself from the chaos of the millions of minds around me and protecting them from the psychokinetic devastation that power can unleash." Again, considering the fact that she was still a telepathic novice when she picked up Bobby's thoughts, I think it's safe to say that she didn't purposefully invade his mind but simply picked up what he was thinking.

I can agree w/ that.The way she handles it is very blunt and harsh.The way she kinda keeps at him and "you're more... full gay" isn't exactly well handled.I think that's his to figure out.

Can't believe I'm saying this but didn't Emma know he was and kept it to herself?Because if I'm remembering this right then I'd say Emma of all people did a better job morally as well as in execution.

Then again she's a Teen w/ her life shattered so can't blame her for the confrontation.

Again, I don't think she picked up Bobby's thoughts purposefully. When All-New X-Men dropped, thirty-plus years prior, it had been established that it takes great effort for Jean to block out others' thoughts--and that's when she was already an adult. During the first years of the O5's time-displacement, Jean was 12-15 years old. At that age, teenagers are still learning about morals, boundaries, and social etiquette. Add to that the fact that she was still learning about her newfound telepathy, had endured trauma herself by having revealed to her decades worth of future tragedies and deaths in the span of seconds, and I think it's logical to assume she was both unaware of what she was doing and emotionally compromised.

Yeah, agreed.

Oh, I totally understand and relate to this sentiment, believe me. I was debating someone on Twitter via DM about the Jean and Bobby scene. He asked, "Did she ever apologize to Bobby for violating him?" I said yes and followed with my own question: "Did Emma Frost ever apologize to Jean for telepathically bombarding her when she was a teenager with romantic/sexual memories of her and Scott together? Did she ever apologize for taking over teenage Scott's mind to "make him the man he is supposed to be?" He responded, "Oh, that's just Emma. Besides, she was teaching them a lesson." /dead

Double standards, I agree w/ the first reasoning that that's Emma in the sense that it's in her character to the former(that scott thing I can't see her doing tbh) but that doesn't mean she looses responsibility for it.

Frankly, "the blowback" has bordered on pathological. Then again, I understand it. After all, Jean is the first X-Woman, Xavier's first student, Marvel's first telekinetic and telekinetic/telepathic character, and is central to one of the most iconic storylines (the Dark Phoenix Saga) in comic book history. And though she has a temper, can make morally ambiguous decisions (e.g., telepathically killing MeMe), and can be downright ferocious when pushed into a corner, overall, she is empathic, altruistic, and selfless. She's both an easy target and a character some people feel compelled to knock down a few pegs.

Happens to all the famous ones ig

Interestingly enough, Lorna's fans have been the most objective, open-minded, and positive about the matter. Then again, most of them are very much aware of Jean and Lorna's long history together. After all, they were the first X-Women.

I think most are glad we got this focus issue in the first place, while some want better execution for it.

[Mercury]

I can definitely see why you like it and identify with it!

Thank you for acknowledging my experience and not feeling the need to label it something that I no longer consider it: a violation.

...the Bendis scene is essentially a bisexual's (or someone who is still figuring out labels) nightmare. Jean not only tells him that he's queer but also tells him exactly how he has to identify. A lot of bisexual and/ or sexually fluid people (which is a huge percentage of the LGBTQ+ community) have a viscerally negative reaction to the scene, because it reads as a straight person sticking a label and a box onto a queer person. In-universe it makes sense because Jean is a telepath but once you translate it to real life, it's a BIG no-no

When you put it this way, the blowback makes a lot more sense, actually. I hadn't really looked at the scene from this angle. While it seems we, as the reader, and with how the scene is written, are meant to assume that Bobby is, in fact, gay - i.e., not bisexual or sexually fluid - I can see why those people who identify as bisexual and sexually fluid would take umbrage at the scene.

Again, thank you for being receptive to my point of view. When analyzing scenes such as these, I think it is important to give our attention and respect to all sides and perspectives. As you noted, many of us in the LGBTQ+ community have vastly different coming out stories, and one person's "nightmare" might be another person's moment of liberation. We should be more careful about intentionally or unintentionally insulting one another's experiences.

[jmc247]

Interestingly enough, Lorna's fans have been the most objective, open-minded, and positive about the matter. Then again, most of them are very much aware of Jean and Lorna's long history together. After all, they were the first X-Women.

If it was Xavier doing it to Mags for the umpteenth time there would be a different response. We can know that for a fact as we saw in Trial of Magneto #2 him pulling worse and the response online was meh Magneto isn't a saint either.

It seems the criticism is coming from two ends; first those who think Xavier and Jean's dynamic of her being the one who doesn't ever cross any possible lines holds.

Secondly, I do think there is a level of holding Jean being ethically flexible with Lorna to a standard they wouldn't to her being the same with Shaw, Cain or even Emma. I would say Lorna and Jean's relationship actually does have some similarities to Xavier/Mags in a way in that Jean believes it's her reasonability as a friend to save her even if that means saving her from herself.

[Mercury]

Again she's your Mom.Jean isn't his Mom, nor does she have the rights a mother would.
I'm glad it worked out for you but if someone did this to me I'd distance myself from them.

I've already established the difference between my situation and Bobby's. My mother was a grown woman; Jean was not. Moreover, my mother had self-control (she has her Master's in Social Work); Jean could not control her powers, which was established prior to the scene in question. Finally, no, Jean is not Bobby's mother, but they certainly had a relationship akin to siblings.

I can agree w/ that.The way she handles it is very blunt and harsh.The way she kinda keeps at him and "you're more... full gay" isn't exactly well handled.I think that's his to figure out.

I do see what you mean. Still, as I've noted repeatedly, I think it is important to consider that Jean was 12-15 years old, not fully in control of her powers, and under great stress, considering the fact that she was the only member of the original team who was fully aware of all of the events of her future, including the deaths and tragedies that would befall her.

Can't believe I'm saying this but didn't Emma know he was and kept it to herself?Because if I'm remembering this right then I'd say Emma of all people did a better job morally as well as in execution.

She did keep it to herself, somewhat, but also felt the need to passively insult him, referring to his "first love" as "interior decorating" - something he has never shown a love for and which grossly plays into degrading and demeaning long-held stereotypes regarding gay men. As someone who has endured my fair share of both direct and passive insults due to being gay, I can tell you for a fact that, in my case, my loved ones pushing me to come out to them was nowhere near as damaging as moments like these, which truly make you feel like there is something wrong with you and that the joke, literally, is on you:

Then again she's a Teen w/ her life shattered so can't blame her for the confrontation.

This is the part most people leave out in their quest to drag her.

Double standards, I agree w/ the first reasoning that that's Emma in the sense that it's in her character to the former(that scott thing I can't see her doing tbh) but that doesn't mean she looses responsibility for it.

Well, the double standard lies both in that we, as the reader, are expected to 1) be okay with what she does because, you know, "Well, that's Emma," no matter how gross and perverse her behavior and 2) in the reasoning that, whenever Emma goes too far (the Scott moment), it's the writer's fault, which is a well-worn tactic, i.e., blaming the writer, to which some of her fans resort. I don't do that with Jean. As much as I may dislike how certain writers have depicted her, I always find a way to make it make sense. Thankfully, when it comes to Jean, she has a rich enough history to allow me to find nuances that are often overlooked by the casual reader.

I mean, I could easily say, "Jean would never do what Bendis wrote! I don't accept it! Look, I have proof! In this scene from the 90s in which Bobby says to Jean, 'I just figured...I guess...I mean...you, um, being a telepath and all--you'd just sort of, I don't know...just know...no?,' this is how Jean responded -"



However, rather than use the above scene to justify why Jean wouldn't do what she did under Bendis, I'd much rather use it to flesh out her character, to add context and, yes, sometimes contradictions to her character and behavior. After all, people are complex and contradictory.

If it was Xavier doing it to Mags for the umpteenth time there would be a different response. We can know that for a fact as we saw in Trial of Magneto #2 him pulling worse and the response online was meh Magneto isn't a saint either.

It seems the criticism is coming from two ends; first those who think Xavier and Jean's dynamic of her being the one who doesn't ever cross any possible lines holds.

Secondly, I do think there is a level of holding Jean being ethically flexible with Lorna to a standard they wouldn't to her being the same with Shaw, Cain or even Emma. I would say Lorna and Jean's relationship actually does have some similarities to Xavier/Mags in a way in that Jean believes it's her reasonability as a friend to save her even if that means saving her from herself.

We've lightly discussed the parallels between the relationships of Xavier and Magneto and Jean and Xavier. I don't really see it, but I find your insights fascinating nonetheless.

[Kingdom X]

Thank you for acknowledging my experience and not feeling the need to label it something that I no longer consider it: a violation.



When you put it this way, the blowback makes a lot more sense, actually. I hadn't really looked at the scene from this angle. While it seems we, as the reader, and with how the scene is written, are meant to assume that Bobby is, in fact, gay - i.e., not bisexual or sexually fluid - I can see why those people who identify as bisexual and sexually fluid would take umbrage at the scene.

Again, thank you for being receptive to my point of view. When analyzing scenes such as these, I think it is important to give our attention and respect to all sides and perspectives. As you noted, many of us in the LGBTQ+ community have vastly different coming out stories, and one person's "nightmare" might be another person's moment of liberation. We should be more careful about intentionally or unintentionally insulting one another's experiences.

Of course! Glad this was a productive discussion

[jmc247]

I don't really see it

Its not built on any philosophical disagreement no. That is the biggest thing people think of when they think of Xavier and Mags.

Actually, Lorna and Jean never had an open philosophical disagreement outside of the 1960s until Trial of Magneto #2.