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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Its not built on any philosophical disagreement no. That is the biggest thing people think of when they think of Xavier and Mags.

    Actually, Lorna and Jean never had an open philosophical disagreement outside of the 1960s until Trial of Magneto #2.
    I see what you mean. Are you basing the comparison on superficial parallels (e.g., powers)?

  2. #287

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I see what you mean. Are you basing the comparison on superficial parallels (e.g., powers)?
    How do I put this? They have not been on the same ongoing team book since wearing miniskirts was actually popular and Magneto was a one note villain.

    Xavier is Jean's mentor and who is Lorna's? Because they were not on the same team since 1970 there was not room for them to have philosophical disagreements and any that were there were papered over between them. Their relationship was similar in some ways that period to Xavier and Magneto's when they were friends in Israel.

    What are they now that they are on the same team for the first time since Nixon was in the WH? I don't know we will see.
    Last edited by jmc247; 11-30-2021 at 10:11 AM.

  3. #288
    Embrace the fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    This time you literally made a fanfic!
    Did I, though? I mean, Rogue didn't end up being matronized/gaslit/brainwashed. I thought that particular plot point conveyed the mockfick/parody/satire angle adequately. My bad, I guess. Tell you what, next time (not really) I'll just cook up a scene in which Lorna dares to have opinions/feelings/triumphs/failures of her own and Jean straight up dresses up like Mother Gothel and breaks into "Mother Knows Best."

    I know, I know, hardly the perfect analogy. Mother Gothel eventually owns up to being the villain.

  4. #289
    Embrace the fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylarmax View Post
    XD hahahahaha you made me the afternoon the day and the whole week with this XD. xD XD XD
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Frighteningly hilarious..if there is such a thing
    For added hilarity, imagine Jean constantly trying to reach out for Rogue's face and Rogue constantly swatting her hand away.

  5. #290
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post

    I've already established the difference between my situation and Bobby's. My mother was a grown woman; Jean was not. Moreover, my mother had self-control (she has her Master's in Social Work); Jean could not control her powers, which was established prior to the scene in question. Finally, no, Jean is not Bobby's mother, but they certainly had a relationship akin to siblings.
    Your mom seems like a preeeeeetty good candidate to handle the complexity of the situation. I mean if I had a choice of who confronted my teen self about my sexuality a social worker with a master's degree is heads and tails better than a friend with mind powers she couldn't control. Just seems like she'd be much more qualified. Obviously since you seem well adjusted Denial is a craaaazy thing. How was he to know if she had "heard it" from his mind? It coulda caused him to deep down question whether she implanted or transferred it to him intentionally or unintentionally




    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I do see what you mean. Still, as I've noted repeatedly, I think it is important to consider that Jean was 12-15 years old, not fully in control of her powers,
    Umm I definitely don't think they were as young as 12 tho...like at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    She did keep it to herself, somewhat, but also felt the need to passively insult him, referring to his "first love" as "interior decorating" - something he has never shown a love for and which grossly plays into degrading and demeaning long-held stereotypes regarding gay men. As someone who has endured my fair share of both direct and passive insults due to being gay, I can tell you for a fact that, in my case, my loved ones pushing me to come out to them was nowhere near as damaging as moments like these, which truly make you feel like there is something wrong with you and that the joke, literally, is on you:

    How is it 'somewhat' when it was only the two of them? And he completely Ice'd out her office the interior decorating joke was totally appropriate. And tbh I don't get how its insulting? Emma was inside his head. Whose to say it's not one of his passions? And if it's not true why would he be insulted? A person implying a falsity about you is more troubling to you than a friend confronting you with a profound truth you weren't ready to admit to yourself????
    GrindrStone(D)

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Your mom seems like a preeeeeetty good candidate to handle the complexity of the situation. I mean if I had a choice of who confronted my teen self about my sexuality a social worker with a master's degree is heads and tails better than a friend with mind powers she couldn't control. Just seems like she'd be much more qualified. Obviously since you seem well adjusted Denial is a craaaazy thing.
    My mother, whom I thank god for every day, was most definitely better qualified to handle my coming out.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    How was he to know if she had "heard it" from his mind? It coulda caused him to deep down question whether she implanted or transferred it to him intentionally or unintentionally
    The scene makes it pretty clear that he was wrestling with the truth about his sexuality before Jean brought it up. Bobby tells her, "I thought I was crazy," which, in part, must have been due to the fact that his adult self was not out of the closet.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Umm I definitely don't think they were as young as 12 tho...like at all.
    I used a broad range just to be safe. Still, they certainly weren't older than 15.

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    How is it 'somewhat' when it was only the two of them? And he completely Ice'd out her office the interior decorating joke was totally appropriate. And tbh I don't get how its insulting? Emma was inside his head. Whose to say it's not one of his passions? And if it's not true why would he be insulted? A person implying a falsity about you is more troubling to you than a friend confronting you with a profound truth you weren't ready to admit to yourself????
    The fact that the scene consisted of only Bobby and Emma is irrelevant. I mean, "it was only the two of them" when Jean told him she knew he was gay, so... Also, good point about the interior decorating joke making a reference to what Bobby did to Emma's office. In either case, at the very least, it was meant as a double entendre that also referred to a gross mischaracterization of gay men. Moreover, in his nearly 60-year history, Bobby has never showed a "love" for interior decorating, so that's a reach.

    People making fun of me being gay was definitely more painful than my loved ones pushing me to come out. The worst insults were those that were maliciously implied (e.g., the mocking lisps, sashaying, limp wrists, and myriad gross comments), especially when they didn't apply to how I carry myself.

  7. #292
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    I always read that scene as Emma being her usually delightful caustic self. Insulting yes, considering the "ice decor", but more off-handish than a...hetero putting down a gay, way. It was funny.

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    I always read that scene as Emma being her usually delightful caustic self. Insulting yes, considering the "ice decor", but more off-handish than a...hetero putting down a gay, way. It was funny.
    Be that as it may, the “joke” is homophobic, and it impacted Bobby negatively, as evidenced by his reaction.

  9. #294
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    I have to say people on here add context to scenes I've never though of before, sometimes it's good and sometimes bad but it's informative nonetheless.

    IMO when people put stuff like race,gender,etc. in conversations that have nothing to do w/ them I feel they are reaching/trying to prove something but if it is then I feel it makes sense.Ofc there are exceptions to this

  10. #295
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Your mom seems like a preeeeeetty good candidate to handle the complexity of the situation. I mean if I had a choice of who confronted my teen self about my sexuality a social worker with a master's degree is heads and tails better than a friend with mind powers she couldn't control. Just seems like she'd be much more qualified. Obviously since you seem well adjusted Denial is a craaaazy thing. How was he to know if she had "heard it" from his mind? It coulda caused him to deep down question whether she implanted or transferred it to him intentionally or unintentionally
    As a gay man he would know if he had those feelings long before he ever met Jean. I dont think he was on the assumption that Jean "made" him gay

    i'll throw in my two cents about this. I dont fault Jean for what she did. She had the best intentions no matter how much people try to malign her role here. All she did was let him know that she had a friend and supporter there to help him in any way he needed. They grew up in a time when homosexuality was looked down upon, hence the repression and fearing living in his truth. That wasnt the case when they were plucked into the future where progress had been made. The O5 didnt know if they would ever go back to the past and had accepted that they had to adapt and live in the world that they were now in and in this world, being gay was okay. Whatever fears Bobby had, Jean wanted to assure him that she was there for him and would support an decision he made. She truly believed she was making the best decision especially since they had the foresight to see Bobby as an adult, never feeling comfortable to open up to anyone. It must have been sad to see and she may have wondered why her adult self was never there for him. She wanted to be different and to do better and she did it in the way that she felt was right

    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    How is it 'somewhat' when it was only the two of them? And he completely Ice'd out her office the interior decorating joke was totally appropriate. And tbh I don't get how its insulting? Emma was inside his head. Whose to say it's not one of his passions? And if it's not true why would he be insulted? A person implying a falsity about you is more troubling to you than a friend confronting you with a profound truth you weren't ready to admit to yourself????
    You can still be insulted by something that someone says is true. That happens when someone is embarassed and/or not ready to admit something, especially if that true statement is made the subject of a joke at one's expense
    Last edited by Havok83; 11-30-2021 at 10:38 AM.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Be that as it may, the “joke” is homophobic, and it impacted Bobby negatively, as evidenced by his reaction.
    The Joke/insult is not homophobic. Because it wasn't given or intended in that context. That's just how you're reading it.

  12. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Be that as it may, the “joke” is homophobic, and it impacted Bobby negatively, as evidenced by his reaction.
    This is starting to get absurd. You can't retroactively add context where there wasn't any because you're mad that Jean outing Bobby got the backlash from the fandom and the LGBT community it so rightly deserved. It's disingenuous and transparent.

    Using your sexuality as a mask to engage in toxic fan wars because you're overly invested in a fictional character is offensive to the rest of us who are LGBT. Think about what you're doing here.

    Accept that people on here have opinions that differ from your own rather than constantly trying to "prove" people wrong with scans of pages that we've all read 20+ years ago.

    Because ultimately, and this is the crux of the matter, no one really cares. I can tell you're new to X-Men, or at least the fandom and I ensure you that you'll be much happier and you'll enjoy the comics much more if you stop taking things so personally.
    Last edited by OmegaStorm87; 11-30-2021 at 10:44 AM.

  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaStorm87 View Post
    This is starting to get absurd. You can't retroactively add context where there wasn't any because you're mad that Jean outing Bobby got the backlash from the fandom and the LGBT community it so rightly deserved. It's disingenuous and transparent.
    Firstly, the context I am providing is well known and has been around since the mid-1980s, as noted by Anthony Oliveira, who wrote a story centered on Bobby for Marvel Voices: Pride earlier this year:



    Oliveira even gave credit to Emma for trying "to help him deal with 'what was holding him back.'" So, I find your insinuation that I am somehow making up this context because I am "mad that Jean outing Bobby got [...] backlash" insulting.



    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaStorm87 View Post
    Using your sexuality as a mask to engage in toxic fan wars because you're overly invested in a fictional character is offensive to the rest of us who are LGBT. Think about what you're doing here.
    "Using" my sexuality? Now you've gone beyond the pale. Furthermore, I am not engaging in "toxic fan wars," though I am using the same analytical lens used to examine Jean's actions to examine the context of those actions, her relationship with Bobby, and the actions of other characters, in this case Emma.

    Then again, considering how much you've demeaned and disparaged Jean as a character on this forum, I don't necessarily consider you the arbiter of objectivity and neutrality.

    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaStorm87 View Post
    Accept that people on here have opinions that differ from your own rather than constantly trying to "prove" people wrong with scans of pages that we've all read 20+ years ago.
    I accept others' differing opinions and only hope the same will be done with me when I present my own. Kingdom X brought up a valid point that I acknowledged, though that reply must have escaped you.

    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaStorm87 View Post
    Because ultimately, and this is the crux of the matter, no one really cares. I can tell you're new to X-Men, or at least the fandom and I ensure you that you'll be much happier and you'll enjoy the comics much more if you stop taking things so personally.
    Apparently, you care enough to accuse me of making up context that has existed for nearly forty years and of "using" my sexuality "as a mask" to engage in "toxic fan wars." The fact that you find the context provided diminishing of whatever non-point you've made in the past or are trying to make now does not give you the right to insult my experiences nor my intelligence.

    I suggest you reexamine your own overinvestment in your love of one character and dislike of another and "stop taking things so personally."

  14. #299
    Astonishing Member protege's Avatar
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    I guess this was polaris' spotlight issue. The action jumped around so much, I couldn't really tell what was going on. Can't say I liked Jean tampering with polaris' decision not to join the team, much less that she was okay with it. I did like how at the end, yet another x- men sharing a meal with the humans they help. This has become a thing, hasn't it?

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