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  1. #151
    Incredible Member andreikes's Avatar
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    People should be complaining about Dugga's writing... For God's sake... He ''took'' Lorna from the team and didn't even develop the character. Jean isn't perfect

  2. #152
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Other books are moving on, I don't see why he has to read lightly. Even Marauders has some plot rn.
    I'd say the only books that are really "moving" are those that are reaching there conclusions like Excalibur and SWORD. Marauders just spent two issues doing a Star Wars parody, New Mutants has been on the same arc for months, and X-Force just did a surfing issue. Not an excuse for this book but I'd say the lack of movement is pretty par for the course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    That being said, I find it irritating that some people choose to go after Jean for a moment like this or like the one she had with Bobby - two instances in which she was trying to help friends, albeit forcefully - but have no problems with how Emma has manipulated people and circumstances this era, especially considering her past tendency to take over and traumatize minds and bodies.

    To name a few instances, she used Ororo's body to be intimate with Shaw, showed teenage Jean sex scenes between her and Jean's future husband, and took over teenage Scott's mind to "turn him into the man he is supposed to be." I'm not even going to get into what she's done this era. It's pretty rich of some of her fans to come after Jean for pushing Lorna to do something she wanted to do or for helping Bobby come out of the closet, especially when, as he admitted in that scene, he thought he was crazy as a result of his feelings and sexuality.
    I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone who has questioned Jean's actions is automatically an Emma fan that has no issues with her actions. It's also not a great defense of Jean to deflect by pointing to Emma who clearly has questionable morals. Also this type of pitting fanbases against each other is not productive, especially when nobody was talking about Emma before this.

  3. #153
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I just think two wrongs don't make a right ,there is no double standard.What Emma does is wrong, but Jean entertaining 'pushing' minds for the 'right' reasons is mere rationalisation of violating people's agency and it's a slippery slope.
    I can agree with it being a "slippery slope."

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    To point out the obvious...

    Even if everyone agreed that whatever that "Emma..." bit was amounted to "Pretty Sketchy..."?

    That would not wave a magic wand changing what Jean did if it amounted to "Basic Sketchy..."
    The two aren't comparable in any way. Jean crossed boundaries to help friends. Emma hasn't just crossed boundaries, she's taken over and violated the minds and bodies of adults and teenagers to make them do what they not only did not want to do but also didn't thank her for afterward.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    One now former reader's take...

    This whole thing has just been painfully dull, and the stakes feel like they are roughly on the level of "Pocket Change..."

    Probably not exactly fair because of the run it had to follow, but the drop off in quality from the previous run to this one is just staggering.
    Absolutely,I was thinking of an apt comparison and I think I have one.It reads like an infinity comic.A beautifully drawn one but still, heck even some of the infinity comics like Spine-tingling Spider-man seem to be more heavy.

    And Hickman was one of the best story writers in comics rn which makes the difference all the more apparent.

    Unrelated but final issue of Hickman's Decorum came out and reviews are amazing.I have them now and can't wait to dig in.

    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    To point out the obvious...

    Even if everyone agreed that whatever that "Emma..." bit was amounted to "Pretty Sketchy..."?

    That would not wave a magic wand changing what Jean did if it amounted to "Basic Sketchy..."
    This, one character(Emma) doing something doesn't justify another one(Jean) doing something similar because they are different characters.Emma is a morally corrupt telepath, so her doing invasive stuff w/ TP is very much in character(aside from the young Scott thing, that was just bad writing IMO).And some writers do shove away all this under the rug of "for the children" or "girlboss" to worship her and it's a bad thing.

    Jean while no saint isn't nearly on Emma's level of not-caring about morals.She has a temper but this wasn't an impulse.

    Again the real problem is the lack of information about the election process, since the comic doesn't set up any rules we are all arguing what we think the rules should be.And in comics if there are no rules then I guess it's up to the people holding the election or in this case just one person, Jean.So she has the power to bend the truth if she feels like it, and acc. to Duggan this is an instance where she felt this was okay.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 11-25-2021 at 05:05 AM.

  5. #155
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    I don't think it's fair to assume that everyone who has questioned Jean's actions is automatically an Emma fan that has no issues with her actions.
    I never made this assumption. However, a pretty prominent Emma fan on these forums has chimed in more than thrice in this thread to criticize Jean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    It's also not a great defense of Jean to deflect by pointing to Emma who clearly has questionable morals. Also this type of pitting fanbases against each other is not productive, especially when nobody was talking about Emma before this.
    You say "who clearly has questionable morals" as if that's supposed to make her actions okay or understandable. Moreover, I brought up Emma to point out the double standard, not to deflect from or defend Jean.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Again the real problem is the lack of information about the election process, since the comic doesn't set up any rules we are all arguing what we think the rules should be.And in comics if there are no rules then I guess it's up to the people holding the election or in this case just one person, Jean.So she has the power to bend the truth if she feels like it, and acc. to Duggan this is an instance where she felt this was okay.
    There is no lack of information. The mutants who wanted to be considered for election and placement on the new team were supposed to telepathically express their interest to all mutants. Initially, Lorna wanted to be considered but then stopped herself from expressing that desire to the rest of the mutants because she became insecure.

    I think Duggan made it pretty clear that all Jean did was telepathically cause Lorna to say what she had been saying to herself before backing down: "Pick Me." Jean didn't force anyone to vote for Lorna; she only made sure that Lorna was in the running. Furthermore, Jean didn't "bend the truth," so that's an inaccurate take.

  7. #157
    Astonishing Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    As I noted previously, I do wish Duggan had given Lorna a Gala speech. While Jean may have pushed Lorna to say what she initially wanted to say - i.e., "pick me" - Lorna must have had her reasons for wanting to be a part of the new team, and she should have been allowed to express those reasons.

    That being said, I find it irritating that some people choose to go after Jean for a moment like this or like the one she had with Bobby - two instances in which she was trying to help friends, albeit forcefully - but have no problems with how Emma has manipulated people and circumstances this era, especially considering her past tendency to take over and traumatize minds and bodies.

    To name a few instances, she used Ororo's body to be intimate with Shaw, showed teenage Jean sex scenes between her and Jean's future husband, and took over teenage Scott's mind to "turn him into the man he is supposed to be." I'm not even going to get into what she's done this era. It's pretty rich of some of her fans to come after Jean for pushing Lorna to do something she wanted to do or for helping Bobby come out of the closet, especially when, as he admitted in that scene, he thought he was crazy as a result of his feelings and sexuality.
    Yeah, a bit more writing focused on Polaris would have been great. I also think a few things could have been left out. Overall, I think the execution needed improvement.

    As for the Jean/Emma stuff, I understand the frustration. It happens with quite a few other characters. I'm not sure there's really any solution to it to be honest. If there is, I certainly have no idea. Reactions/perspectives are always a surprise.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 11-25-2021 at 05:15 AM.
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  8. #158
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    I never made this assumption. However, a pretty prominent Emma fan on these forums has chimed in more than thrice in this thread to criticize Jean.

    You say "who clearly has questionable morals" as if that's supposed to make her actions okay or understandable. Moreover, I brought up Emma to point out the double standard, not to deflect from or defend Jean.
    Ok then respond to that poster. You made a general statement about how "people" (a.k.a. multiple) have a double standard when it comes to Emma. Also you're again assuming that I have some stake in the Emma game, by saying that I said her actions are okay or even understandable. I'd understand if every comment in here was attacking Jean and praising Emma, but I haven't seen any of that. I understand the point you're trying to make but making assumptions about fanbases and pitting them against each other is not it. It creates this false dichotomy between Jean and Emma fans that certainly does not have to exist. People can like Jean for certain reasons and like Emma for others because they're different characters.
    Last edited by Kingdom X; 11-25-2021 at 05:17 AM.

  9. #159
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    On the scale of questionable" things Jean's done...this is utterly insignificant. Again...as explained in the story...she didn't violate Lorna's trust or take away her "agency" or neglected "consent" or any of the trendy rote terminologies some like to use (out of context).

    As with every X-Man...she did what she felt was right in the moment. And as with all such decisions....it could have come back to bite her but it didn't. Regardless of how we all may feel about it...it really isn't that deep. Simply because the one person who is solely affected by this...Lorna...is actually very okies with it. If the narrative had gone in the other direction and Lorna wasn't okies with Jean's push then all the over-angst might...might...be justified.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Planet Arakko, FOREVER!!!

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    There is no lack of information. The mutants who wanted to be considered for election and placement on the new team were supposed to telepathically express their interest to all mutants. Initially, Lorna wanted to be considered but then stopped herself from expressing that desire to the rest of the mutants because she became insecure.

    I think Duggan made it pretty clear that all Jean did was telepathically cause Lorna to say what she had been saying to herself before backing down: "Pick Me." Jean didn't force anyone to vote for Lorna; she only made sure that Lorna was in the running. Furthermore, Jean didn't "bend the truth," so that's an inaccurate take.
    So what happens if someone made one pitch and then made another one, which one is chosen?And why does Jean have the power to pick the pitch she feels is better even though someone changes their mind.
    How do the people who didn't make it because Jean helped one of them out feel?
    Also why didn't we actually get to see Lorna's pitch in her spotlight issue?

    Again it's the same thing as consequences not justifying actions.W/ Bobby and now w/ Lorna Jean takes the decision out of their hands, the writer can make it so that it turns out it was the right choice but at the end of the day it doesn't justify the action.It's not her choice.

    She may have felt it was right, but it wasn't her choice in the first place.And this isn't a matter of life and death where she had to choose because stakes were very high.

    Also "It's quite elegant, actually.Telepathically bonded, any mutant who wishes to...."I think Lorna thought about it but at the time of voting didn't wish to be a part of the X-men.Jean changed that and went w/ what she thought earlier.Hence I said bending the truth.

    Again it's not something new, I stated before I don't think it's a big deal.But I do think people saying what she did what questionable do have a reason to say so
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 11-25-2021 at 05:30 AM.

  11. #161
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Ok then respond to that poster.
    Frankly, I don't have to respond to that poster if I don't want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    You made a general statement about how "people" (a.k.a. multiple) have a double standard when it comes to Emma. Also you're again assuming that I have some stake in the Emma game, by saying that I said her actions are okay or even understandable.
    Yes, I did make a general statement. However, I pointed out what you wrote - "It's also not a great defense of Jean to deflect by pointing to Emma who clearly has questionable morals." - because it seemed to evidence this double standard. (By the way, you don't have to be an Emma fan or "have some stake in the Emma game" to hold her to a different standard than you do Jean.) Moreover, I never wrote that you "said her actions are okay or even understandable." I wrote, "You say "who clearly has questionable morals" as if that's supposed to make her actions okay or understandable."

    By the way, why did you bring up that Emma "clearly has questionable morals"?

  12. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    On the scale of questionable" things Jean's done...this is utterly insignificant. Again...as explained in the story...she didn't violate Lorna's trust or take away her "agency" or neglected "consent" or any of the trendy rote terminologies some like to use (out of context).

    As with every X-Man...she did what she felt was right in the moment. And as with all such decisions....it could have come back to bite her but it didn't. Regardless of how we all may feel about it...it really isn't that deep. Simply because the one person who is solely affected by this...Lorna...is actually very okies with it. If the narrative had gone in the other direction and Lorna wasn't okies with Jean's push then all the over-angst might...might...be justified.
    Agreed, it really isn't that deep. At the end of the day Lorna is saving the world, and is front and center with improving mutant/human relations. It's a win.



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  13. #163

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    I will be dropping this book, I just can't justify buying when I'm yet to enjoy a single issue. Every issue feels the same and it's not entertaining or thought provoking, hopefully after this book ends we can get an x-book that has some progression or substance. I thought fallen angels was garbage but at least that story had a point.

  14. #164
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    I'm just glad Lorna has found her "safe space" (to use one of those rote terminologies) to flourish and shine and, in some measure, heal...thanks to her friend Jean. And for all intent and purpose, going by what's actually written in the story, Lorna is glad too. It is indeed a win.

    Happy Day of being Thankful, Sibling.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 11-25-2021 at 06:01 AM.
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  15. #165
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Yes, I did make a general statement. However, I pointed out what you wrote - "It's also not a great defense of Jean to deflect by pointing to Emma who clearly has questionable morals." - because it seemed to evidence this double standard. (By the way, you don't have to be an Emma fan or "have some stake in the Emma game" to hold her to a different standard than you do Jean.) Moreover, I never wrote that you "said her actions are okay or even understandable." I wrote, "You say "who clearly has questionable morals" as if that's supposed to make her actions okay or understandable."

    By the way, why did you bring up that Emma "clearly has questionable morals"?
    I mentioned Emma clearly having questionable morals, because you flooded a thread about an issue that had nothing to do with Emma with images of her being morally dubious. Everybody knows that she is and if they don't than they're kidding themselves. It's been part of her character from jump.

    Again my main point is that I don't think it's cool to create false dichotomies between fanbases because they are plenty of people who like all of these characters despite their differences. I'd prefer not to derail the thread with Emma talk because again, she was not the focus of this issue.

    Edit: I'm realizing I'm coming off more combative than I normally do. Definitely not my intention! Thankful that we can have these discussions and enjoy these stories together!
    Last edited by Kingdom X; 11-25-2021 at 06:06 AM.

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