Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
Speaking from personal experience, as someone who was coaxed and forced out of the closet at sixteen by the two people closest to me (my best friend insisted she knew I was gay, while my mother found out I was gay after reading a private letter to said best friend), for me, the consequences were fearful denial, followed by extreme anger, followed by a feeling of hollowness, which lasted a few days and is hard to describe, and, finally, resulting in an overwhelming sense of relief. As Bobby admitted to Jean after she told him she knew he was gay, "I really thought I was crazy." Living in the closet certainly made me feel that way, too.
I hope you realize someone finding out is different from Telepathically entering your mind and getting info.Also Jean isn't Bobby's Mom, Mom's looking out for Kids because they can tell something is up is far different than what Jean did.My Parents have done the same lol, helped me through some stuff(mental health related) and if a friend did that I'd be pissed.

She doesn't have the rights to do that, she's not his parent.And the way she handled it shows she's not ready for it yet.She didn't help him, you don't help someone by cornering them and making them admit something that they are not ready to.The trauma and regression from that would be insane, but again thus is just being used this to make the change abruptly instead of actually attempting a nuanced story.

"Also, lol, Jean did not "help" Bobby come out of the closet, she cornered a friend and forced them to admit their sexuality. It was one of the most tone deaf and awkward sequence of panels I've ever had to read. A shining example of a thing NEVER to do to a closeted person."

My thoughts exactly.I don't want to think about what I could have done if someone confronted me like this(and Bobby's case seems far more sensitive than mine tbh

The fact that my own emergence from the closet so closely mirrors Bobby's is why I am fond of this scene and get annoyed when people try to contort it into something that it wasn't (i.e., she didn't out him to others). While I was initially angry at both my best friend and especially my mother, I don't classify what either of them did as morally ambiguous because they love me and only wanted me to know that 1) they would accept me for who I am and 2) I didn't have to hide my truth and suffer alone in silence as a result. Of course, objectively, I can understand why others would criticize them for doing what they did, but, after a certain point, I would undoubtedly and rather strongly come to their defense.
Again intention behind actions isn't what we're calling morally ambiguous.The action itself is what we're talking about.An highly exaggerated parallel to make the point clearer.So many "villains" have good "intentions" yet do horrible things to achieve them.

Watchmen shows this for one, the British show Utopia's Network is the same.

Both good intentions, heck the best ones but we can tell their actions were wrong.

The point being intentions don't justify actions, or shouldn't.

(I'm not saying Jean's case is remotely close in magnitude to these, it's just to have a clearer example of good/great motives and intentions don't justify wrong actions)

Bobby reacted in much the same way I did, except that his anger towards Jean lasted longer and was expressed over the course of years, in more than one issue. Moreover, the positive consequences of Jean's actions were honestly and beautifully expressed on the page below because that's exactly how I would feel now if forced to "go back":

My point is exactly, this was just an example I used for it.

It's the "it worked out in the end"/"we made it"/"I'm better off because of what you did" trope.A character makes a choice that wasn't there's to make and yet it works out in a way that justifies the choice.

Like stealing someone's car and then said person's place of work was blown up.It makes the Car stealing look good when it wasn't a good thing.(I already addressed why intentions aren't relevant.And again it's hyperbole.)
Point is a negative actions leads to a bigger positive and thus the negative action is justified because of it

It's not this case in particular, it's the fact it happens so much that makes it annoying to me.

Actually, I agree with you here. More importantly, in hindsight, though I like the intent with which Jean acted, I don't think the scene was fleshed out enough to make sense, considering how the election has been depicted thus far. Based on the speeches that have come before - namely, Shiro's and Jean's - it is my understanding that each candidate gave a speech and listed their reasons for wanting to be picked for the team prior to everyone casting their vote. It doesn't seem realistic that Lorna would be elected to the team after simply saying "pick me," unless Duggan intended to imply/underscore her popularity, i.e., that people overwhelmingly voted for her despite the fact that she didn't give a petition speech for a spot on the team.
100% agreed on this.Jean didn't have any bad intent in most of her cases if not all and Lorna's doubt and speech should have been shown.

In either case, Duggan could have simply inserted Lorna's impromptu speech after Jean pushed her to say "pick me," and maybe even had her start the speech by saying something to the effect of, "You know, I almost withdrew my name from consideration, but a friend pushed me to say 'pick me.'" This brings me to another point: Duggan wrote this scene in a way that contradicts both the fact that Lorna was already in consideration for the team - she was one of the ten official candidates people were asked to vote for - and Zeb Wells' Five Minutes Later strips, in which those ten candidates were depicted in scenes before and after voting ended.
Again agreed on all accounts.


It's unfortunate that this scene is inconsistent with how the election has been depicted thus far and that it not only cost Lorna a proper speech but has also resulted in criticism of and attacks on Jean. Of course, it's clear that some of those criticisms and attacks are based on ulterior motives and are coming from those who dislike Jean as a character for various reasons outside of moral ambiguity. (Hell, you have one particularly obnoxious poster on here who turned on Jean after saying she was one of their favorite characters all because their favorite character isn't featured in this series as prominently as they would like and also because I wouldn't cosign their bordering-on-racist attacks on Ororo.)
Agreed again

To be fair, Jean hasn't participated in many moments like these; however, when she has, she has received blowback in the books. Iceman read her pretty vehemently after she told him she knew he was gay, and when she tried changing Warren's mind in All-New X-Men, Emma and the Cuckoos telepathically attacked her. Then again, as I noted, she hasn't been in more than a handful of these types of scenes.
Again I agree, it's the "all's well that end's well" stuff I wish we don't see a lot more of.These "morally ambiguous" decisions should be allowed to have negative consequences so atleast there's some contrast and glee of when we get the positive ones.

The blowback has always been heavy on Jean(despite or more likely because she's always been seen as the "good girl" Telepath of the bunch), and I don't want her character bashed more and more.It's the actual in-story (negative)consequences(to the character who were on the receiving side) I'm talking about.

Again, I agree with you on this. This could have easily been done had Duggan written a speech for Lorna. She should have been allowed to express why she was going to withdraw her name for consideration, followed by why her first impulse was to say "pick me."
I feel some resentment of Jean on this thread is also because they feel Duggan may have stolen some light from Lorna to have the Jean TP swap thing.I mostly disagree and I think he just wrote this completely wrong.

Reminds me of when Bendis wrote New Avengers as Luke Cage starring Jessica jones(and Ronin) and hey look the Avengers are here as well.He nerfed the ever living f*ck out of Strange(can't even land a plane lmfao) and made it seem like Peter didn't even know Osborn to put all the focus on Luke Cage(and Ronin).Again it's not as bad since Cage is a POC and they are usually the ones of the backburner on teams.

But I still feel so much lesser about that run because of how Peter and Strange were treated.