Page 18 of 20 FirstFirst ... 814151617181920 LastLast
Results 256 to 270 of 299
  1. #256
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    7,144

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Bobby admonished Jean twice for telling him in private that she new he was gay. What other bad outcome or negative consequence would you have liked to see?
    Longer lasting and more important ones.Ones that are explored more.We don't see ant actual negative consequences explored in any depth.

    Also when he admonished her he immediately went on to say "It's muddy water under the bridge at this point".This isn't like the other cases as in most agree it's a violation to the point the writers have to accept that.2 pages of him being angry w/ her doesn't fix that.

    For e.x. it would have been cool to see Lorna getting stressed out(maybe w/ the reavers because all X-men were down) because of the pressure that's on her that she feels.She wanted to join the X-men but was doubting herself, would be cool to see that play into the actual comic instead of "you were right" thing.

    Again not any specific case, I just hate the amount "you were right all along"/"I needed that"/"it all worked out in the end" trope used w/ morally dubious decisions made by "good guys".Seeing Xavier pay the price for messing w/ Scott's head because he saw it fit was a great moment.Just because you can doesn't mean you should, and making that choice is a big risk that doesn't(shouldn't) always pay off.

    Also an issue w/ the issue(lol)-> They showed us in the issue that she had doubts but it's not explored in any depth.I'm not saying if it's in character for her to have that doubt or not but that's what they said.Yet we don't see why she was doubting herself at all or what reason she had to be an X-man.We don't see her overcoming any doubt because she didn't show any in the comic.It's such a surface level thing, like they made her have Telepathic cold feet but didn't explain why she did or how it would affect her being an X-man and how she overcame it.

  2. #257
    BANNED Sylarmax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,615

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jpmst17 View Post
    For me, this series has been the definition of mediocre. Cyclops is almost non-existent, X-23 pretty much does nothing, Shiro is a side character. Duggan's issues are also kind of dull. Really, the only exciting thing has been the Ben Urich stuff. I hope this series turns around soon
    Bravo, agreed With this , this book si a Jean ( Zzz) Grey solo X_x

  3. #258
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    14,135

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jpmst17 View Post
    For me, this series has been the definition of mediocre. Cyclops is almost non-existent, X-23 pretty much does nothing, Shiro is a side character. Duggan's issues are also kind of dull. Really, the only exciting thing has been the Ben Urich stuff. I hope this series turns around soon
    I agree. Personally I’m ready for a second X-men team myself. Need another option besides just this squad as it kind of bores me.

  4. #259
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2021
    Posts
    321

    Default

    The squad had great potential. Duggan, just like with Marauders, had squandered any potential with stories that no one has any interest in. JDW's editorial control is shambolic.

    Also, lol, Jean did not "help" Bobby come out of the closet, she cornerd a friend and forced them to admit their sexuality. It was one of the most tone deaf and awkward sequence of panels I've ever had to read. A shining example of a thing NEVER to do to a closeted person.

  5. #260
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    7,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Longer lasting and more important ones.Ones that are explored more.We don't see ant actual negative consequences explored in any depth.

    Also when he admonished her he immediately went on to say "It's muddy water under the bridge at this point".This isn't like the other cases as in most agree it's a violation to the point the writers have to accept that.2 pages of him being angry w/ her doesn't fix that.
    Speaking from personal experience, as someone who was coaxed and forced out of the closet at sixteen by the two people closest to me (my best friend insisted she knew I was gay, while my mother found out I was gay after reading a private letter to said best friend), for me, the consequences were fearful denial, followed by extreme anger, followed by a feeling of hollowness, which lasted a few days and is hard to describe, and, finally, resulting in an overwhelming sense of relief. As Bobby admitted to Jean after she told him she knew he was gay, "I really thought I was crazy." Living in the closet certainly made me feel that way, too.

    The fact that my own emergence from the closet so closely mirrors Bobby's is why I am fond of this scene and get annoyed when people try to contort it into something that it wasn't (i.e., she didn't out him to others). While I was initially angry at both my best friend and especially my mother, I don't classify what either of them did as morally ambiguous because they love me and only wanted me to know that 1) they would accept me for who I am and 2) I didn't have to hide my truth and suffer alone in silence as a result. Of course, objectively, I can understand why others would criticize them for doing what they did, but, after a certain point, I would undoubtedly and rather strongly come to their defense.

    Bobby reacted in much the same way I did, except that his anger towards Jean lasted longer and was expressed over the course of years, in more than one issue. Moreover, the positive consequences of Jean's actions were honestly and beautifully expressed on the page below because that's exactly how I would feel now if forced to "go back":



    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    For e.x. it would have been cool to see Lorna getting stressed out(maybe w/ the reavers because all X-men were down) because of the pressure that's on her that she feels.She wanted to join the X-men but was doubting herself, would be cool to see that play into the actual comic...
    Actually, I agree with you here. More importantly, in hindsight, though I like the intent with which Jean acted, I don't think the scene was fleshed out enough to make sense, considering how the election has been depicted thus far. Based on the speeches that have come before - namely, Shiro's and Jean's - it is my understanding that each candidate gave a speech and listed their reasons for wanting to be picked for the team prior to everyone casting their vote. It doesn't seem realistic that Lorna would be elected to the team after simply saying "pick me," unless Duggan intended to imply/underscore her popularity, i.e., that people overwhelmingly voted for her despite the fact that she didn't give a petition speech for a spot on the team.

    In either case, Duggan could have simply inserted Lorna's impromptu speech after Jean pushed her to say "pick me," and maybe even had her start the speech by saying something to the effect of, "You know, I almost withdrew my name from consideration, but a friend pushed me to say 'pick me.'" This brings me to another point: Duggan wrote this scene in a way that contradicts both the fact that Lorna was already in consideration for the team - she was one of the ten official candidates people were asked to vote for - and Zeb Wells' Five Minutes Later strips, in which those ten candidates were depicted in scenes before and after voting ended.



    https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/13...292355/photo/1



    It's unfortunate that this scene is inconsistent with how the election has been depicted thus far and that it not only cost Lorna a proper speech but has also resulted in criticism of and attacks on Jean. Of course, it's clear that some of those criticisms and attacks are based on ulterior motives and are coming from those who dislike Jean as a character for various reasons outside of moral ambiguity. (Hell, you have one particularly obnoxious poster on here who turned on Jean after saying she was one of their favorite characters all because their favorite character isn't featured in this series as prominently as they would like and also because I wouldn't cosign their bordering-on-racist attacks on Ororo.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Again not any specific case, I just hate the amount "you were right all along"/"I needed that"/"it all worked out in the end" trope used w/ morally dubious decisions made by "good guys".Seeing Xavier pay the price for messing w/ Scott's head because he saw it fit was a great moment.Just because you can doesn't mean you should, and making that choice is a big risk that doesn't(shouldn't) always pay off.
    To be fair, Jean hasn't participated in many moments like these; however, when she has, she has received blowback in the books. Iceman read her pretty vehemently after she told him she knew he was gay, and when she tried changing Warren's mind in All-New X-Men, Emma and the Cuckoos telepathically attacked her. Then again, as I noted, she hasn't been in more than a handful of these types of scenes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Also an issue w/ the issue(lol)-> They showed us in the issue that she had doubts but it's not explored in any depth.I'm not saying if it's in character for her to have that doubt or not but that's what they said.Yet we don't see why she was doubting herself at all or what reason she had to be an X-man.We don't see her overcoming any doubt because she didn't show any in the comic.It's such a surface level thing, like they made her have Telepathic cold feet but didn't explain why she did or how it would affect her being an X-man and how she overcame it.
    Again, I agree with you on this. This could have easily been done had Duggan written a speech for Lorna. She should have been allowed to express why she was going to withdraw her name for consideration, followed by why her first impulse was to say "pick me."
    Last edited by Mercury; 11-28-2021 at 10:08 AM.

  6. #261
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    8,256

    Default

    I'm of the mind that the way that the scene with Lorna just doesn't make a whole lot of sense with what we know about the election in the first place. The moment that Jean connected the minds of mutantkind would be when they felt everything that was being said and done, so if that was explained as why Lorna was chosen, I think it would have been better. Her saying just pick me, okay, sure - because they already knew how she'd feel and act as a hero. But it seems like Duggan is making these telepathic speeches be their reasons to be selected as members of the team, and given that all it seems is that Lorna was seen saying to pick her and so... they did? What? Yeah, I don't think that I'm buying that.

    I would've much preferred that Duggan took the moment to get into Lorna's head a little more and shown us why she wanted to be an X-Man and the real reason that the people of mutantkind chose her to be one. Her feelings on being one of the oldest members of the team, her feelings on being a doctor of geology, her feelings on being Magneto's daughter and being a member of X-Factor. As opposed to the data page that introduced the cookout we could've gotten one page of Lorna having her own speech, and then ultimately choosing to 'tell' the people not to pick her. Only they were already connected telepathically so Jean already saw the speech, because telepathy should be instantaneous, and that speech was what Jean showed everyone else because it was Lorna's first instinct. It would've been much better storytelling, and honestly I expect more from Duggan than what we got.

    It also would've been a lot less dubious than the scene is presented, though I still don't really believe that Jean did anything wrong. She made people see Lorna's first instinct to the election as opposed to her own self-doubts, and the issue reminds us twice that it was the correct decision.

    But yeah. I just wanted something more from it, and while I'm still a little iffy on his voice for Wolverine, I'm excited to see what's coming for Scott, Rogue, Ev, and even Laura.
    "We come into this world alone and we leave the same way. The time we spent in between - time spent alive, sharing, learning together... is all that makes life worth living." - Jean Grey

  7. #262
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    4,521

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I'm of the mind that the way that the scene with Lorna just doesn't make a whole lot of sense with what we know about the election in the first place. The moment that Jean connected the minds of mutantkind would be when they felt everything that was being said and done, so if that was explained as why Lorna was chosen, I think it would have been better. Her saying just pick me, okay, sure - because they already knew how she'd feel and act as a hero. But it seems like Duggan is making these telepathic speeches be their reasons to be selected as members of the team, and given that all it seems is that Lorna was seen saying to pick her and so... they did? What? Yeah, I don't think that I'm buying that.

    I would've much preferred that Duggan took the moment to get into Lorna's head a little more and shown us why she wanted to be an X-Man and the real reason that the people of mutantkind chose her to be one. Her feelings on being one of the oldest members of the team, her feelings on being a doctor of geology, her feelings on being Magneto's daughter and being a member of X-Factor. As opposed to the data page that introduced the cookout we could've gotten one page of Lorna having her own speech, and then ultimately choosing to 'tell' the people not to pick her. Only they were already connected telepathically so Jean already saw the speech, because telepathy should be instantaneous, and that speech was what Jean showed everyone else because it was Lorna's first instinct. It would've been much better storytelling, and honestly I expect more from Duggan than what we got.

    It also would've been a lot less dubious than the scene is presented, though I still don't really believe that Jean did anything wrong. She made people see Lorna's first instinct to the election as opposed to her own self-doubts, and the issue reminds us twice that it was the correct decision.

    But yeah. I just wanted something more from it, and while I'm still a little iffy on his voice for Wolverine, I'm excited to see what's coming for Scott, Rogue, Ev, and even Laura.
    Excellent rewrite! I think the reason why some are pointing out the unfairness of the situation is because she only thought that one sentence and without the change we can assume someone else would have won the vote. If she basically gives a whole compelling speech and at the last minute starts to back out I think it would make the scene cleaner.

  8. #263

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    But it seems like Duggan is making these telepathic speeches be their reasons to be selected as members of the team, and given that all it seems is that Lorna was seen saying to pick her and so... they did? What? Yeah, I don't think that I'm buying that.

    I would've much preferred that Duggan took the moment to get into Lorna's head a little more and shown us why she wanted to be an X-Man and the real reason that the people of mutantkind chose her to be one. Her feelings on being one of the oldest members of the team, her feelings on being a doctor of geology, her feelings on being Magneto's daughter and being a member of X-Factor. As opposed to the data page that introduced the cookout we could've gotten one page of Lorna having her own speech, and then ultimately choosing to 'tell' the people not to pick her. Only they were already connected telepathically so Jean already saw the speech, because telepathy should be instantaneous, and that speech was what Jean showed everyone else because it was Lorna's first instinct. It would've been much better storytelling, and honestly I expect more from Duggan than what we got.
    Your point here is very strong and apt and its a significant problem with Lorna in this era of not knowing what the hell her motivation is. But, I would take an even higher altitude look in terms of Lorna and the motivational question. The character is suddenly on ground zero of human-mutant issues in New York City.

    Humanity all around and she is helping them on a daily basis or at least helping them to help Krakoa if one is being cynical. But, her feelings at the start of the Krakoa era were not exactly filled with love and warmth for humanity and were much more in keeping with the Lorna of a decade and a half ago still wounded and cynical from the Genoshan genocide.



    Does she now feel warmth and love for humanity? Is she cynically helping humanity to help Krakoa? Does she just want to hang out with her old friends? We don't know.

    Its semi ok we don't know if they are planning for a swerve of some kind with her story, but right now cool shades and coffee aside I have no idea where she is at as a character because they haven't been explaining her motivation or vision since House of X.
    Last edited by jmc247; 11-28-2021 at 11:08 AM.

  9. #264
    Jean Grey Scholar Mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    My mind.
    Posts
    7,128

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    Your point here is very strong and apt and its a significant problem with Lorna in this era of not knowing what the hell her motivation is. But, I would take an even higher altitude look in terms of Lorna and the motivational question. The character is suddenly on ground zero of human-mutant issues in New York City.

    Humanity all around and she is helping them on a daily basis or at least helping them to help Krakoa if one is being cynical. But, her feelings at the start of the Krakoa era were not exactly filled with love and warmth for humanity and were much more in keeping with the Lorna of a decade and a half ago still wounded and cynical from the Genoshan genocide.



    Does she now feel warmth and love for humanity? Is she cynically helping humanity to help Krakoa? Does she just want to hang out with her old friends? We don't know.

    Its semi ok we don't know if they are planning for a swerve of some kind with her story, but right now cool shades and coffee aside I have no idea where she is at as a character because they haven't been explaining her motivation or vision since House of X.
    Hickman was definitely writing her differently. Also, you and Harpsikord bring up some great points.

  10. #265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Hickman was definitely writing her differently. Also, you and Harpsikord bring up some great points.
    Hickman wasn't necessarily writing her differently because we don't know Duggan's Lorna's thoughts and fears. She has a different persona sure, but Lorna puts on personas like a suit of armor and sometimes comes with more than one in a story arc.

    Remember all those Lorna and Jean scenes from the early 00s? Lorna was very angry and fearful of humanity then and Jean had to know it on some level because she did peak around into her head. But, Lorna knew Jean wouldn't share such thoughts and vice versa so they kept their discussions out of that territory.

    If we saw Lorna's thoughts and she talked about how she loved humanity then yes it would non-aligned with Hickman's Polaris. But, we haven't and there are many reasons she could be on the X-Men right now and obstensively helping humanity that very much align with Lorna's views from the start of the House of X.
    Last edited by jmc247; 11-28-2021 at 12:26 PM.

  11. #266
    Incredible Member Starchilde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Chile, South America
    Posts
    637

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    I'm of the mind that the way that the scene with Lorna just doesn't make a whole lot of sense with what we know about the election in the first place. The moment that Jean connected the minds of mutantkind would be when they felt everything that was being said and done, so if that was explained as why Lorna was chosen, I think it would have been better. Her saying just pick me, okay, sure - because they already knew how she'd feel and act as a hero. But it seems like Duggan is making these telepathic speeches be their reasons to be selected as members of the team, and given that all it seems is that Lorna was seen saying to pick her and so... they did? What? Yeah, I don't think that I'm buying that.

    I would've much preferred that Duggan took the moment to get into Lorna's head a little more and shown us why she wanted to be an X-Man and the real reason that the people of mutantkind chose her to be one. Her feelings on being one of the oldest members of the team, her feelings on being a doctor of geology, her feelings on being Magneto's daughter and being a member of X-Factor. As opposed to the data page that introduced the cookout we could've gotten one page of Lorna having her own speech, and then ultimately choosing to 'tell' the people not to pick her. Only they were already connected telepathically so Jean already saw the speech, because telepathy should be instantaneous, and that speech was what Jean showed everyone else because it was Lorna's first instinct. It would've been much better storytelling, and honestly I expect more from Duggan than what we got.

    It also would've been a lot less dubious than the scene is presented, though I still don't really believe that Jean did anything wrong. She made people see Lorna's first instinct to the election as opposed to her own self-doubts, and the issue reminds us twice that it was the correct decision.

    But yeah. I just wanted something more from it, and while I'm still a little iffy on his voice for Wolverine, I'm excited to see what's coming for Scott, Rogue, Ev, and even Laura.
    This. Couldn’t have say it better. I was a bit disappointed to not see more depth about her decision. Being insecure about it it’s ok but we could have a better and more impactful story if these motivations, and why she has this insecurity, were presented.

  12. #267
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,598

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    I agree. Personally I’m ready for a second X-men team myself. Need another option besides just this squad as it kind of bores me.
    The problem is not the team, is Duggan.

  13. #268
    Embrace the fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,944

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylarmax View Post
    Bravo, agreed With this , this book si a Jean ( Zzz) Grey solo X_x
    Rogue: "Jean, we need to talk."
    Jean: "Hey, Ana! What's up?"
    Rogue: "Actually, I'd really like to talk about those last minute rewrites you keep shov..."
    Jean: "Good! I can always use a cardboard cuto... I mean, a good friend and former apprentice with whom I have such a rich and complex history to stand there and agree with everything I say. Blue Team for life, am I right?"
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "That is absolutely not how it..."
    Jean: "So what do you think of the 'Rogue gets to pretend she's important for a whole maybe but not really ten pages' episode? I went all in with the punching and one-liners."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "Fine, the punching and one-liners are objectively coo..."
    Jean: "I knew it. I always do."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "But then you kind of just show up out of nowhere and start going on about how you taught me everything, how proud you are of me and how you just know one day I'll be a great lea..."
    Jean: "I know, right? It'll be a great character moment for you."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "The script literally says 'Gently shove Rogue out of focus and make this about yourself, but be slick about it.''"
    Jean: "......................................"
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Jean: "Rogue, don't be like that. I *deserve* this."
    Rogue: "I'm not Lorna. The Care Bear Stare isn't going to work."
    Jean: "......................................"
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Jean: "Tell you what, Ana, I still haven't decided whether I'll bench Scott or turn him into a plant. I could always swap your character arcs, if you'd like."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Jean: "......................................"
    Rogue: "I'll show up on time and give it my 110%. Hail Jean."

  14. #269
    Incredible Member Starchilde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2021
    Location
    Chile, South America
    Posts
    637

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    Rogue: "Jean, we need to talk."
    Jean: "Hey, Ana! What's up?"
    Rogue: "Actually, I'd really like to talk about those last minute rewrites you keep shov..."
    Jean: "Good! I can always use a cardboard cuto... I mean, a good friend and former apprentice with whom I have such a rich and complex history to stand there and agree with everything I say. Blue Team for life, am I right?"
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "That is absolutely not how it..."
    Jean: "So what do you think of the 'Rogue gets to pretend she's important for a whole maybe but not really ten pages' episode? I went all in with the punching and one-liners."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "Fine, the punching and one-liners are objectively coo..."
    Jean: "I knew it. I always do."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "But then you kind of just show up out of nowhere and start going on about how you taught me everything, how proud you are of me and how you just know one day I'll be a great lea..."
    Jean: "I know, right? It'll be a great character moment for you."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Rogue: "The script literally says 'Gently shove Rogue out of focus and make this about yourself, but be slick about it.''"
    Jean: "......................................"
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Jean: "Rogue, don't be like that. I *deserve* this."
    Rogue: "I'm not Lorna. The Care Bear Stare isn't going to work."
    Jean: "......................................"
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Jean: "Tell you what, Ana, I still haven't decided whether I'll bench Scott or turn him into a plant. I could always swap your character arcs, if you'd like."
    Rogue: "......................................"
    Jean: "......................................"
    Rogue: "I'll show up on time and give it my 110%. Hail Jean."
    This time you literally made a fanfic!

  15. #270
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Da Souf
    Posts
    6,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaStorm87 View Post
    The squad had great potential. Duggan, just like with Marauders, had squandered any potential with stories that no one has any interest in. JDW's editorial control is shambolic.

    Also, lol, Jean did not "help" Bobby come out of the closet, she cornerd a friend and forced them to admit their sexuality. It was one of the most tone deaf and awkward sequence of panels I've ever had to read. A shining example of a thing NEVER to do to a closeted person.
    Yeeeeah I agree that whole seen was slightly gross and piggish. And the fact he (for the most part) just took it was especially eye rolling
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylarmax View Post
    Bravo, agreed With this , this book si a Jean ( Zzz) Grey solo X_x
    Damn a b!tch gets one "lone" adventure issue and now it's a solo
    GrindrStone(D)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •