X-MEN #5 Review *spoilers*

[davetvs]

I mentioned Emma clearly having questionable morals, because you flooded a thread about an issue that had nothing to do with Emma with images of her being morally dubious. Everybody knows that she is and if they don't than they're kidding themselves. It's been part of her character from jump.

Again my main point is that I don't think it's cool to create false dichotomies between fanbases because they are plenty of people who like all of these characters despite their differences. I'd prefer not to derail the thread with Emma talk because again, she was not the focus of this issue.

Edit: I'm realizing I'm coming off more combative than I normally do. Definitely not my intention! Thankful that we can have these discussions and enjoy these stories together!

I agree, there was absolutely no need to bring up Emma because Emma is the kind of character who we expect to use her powers in morally ambiguous ways. There is no double standard, there are simply distinct characterizations for distinct characters. I personally like seeing Jean, Betsy, and the Professor "slip" and use their powers in similar ways (from time to time, when they feel like the situation calls for it vs. regularly like Emma because she doesn't care about the violation, that's the difference.) Whether Jean can justify what she -sometimes- does with her powers or not doesn't change the fact that she's "violating" someone. She's just not usually the person you'd expect that from. In any case there is precedent for it and it makes her more layered. If you had psychic powers it's likely that you'd end up slipping from time to time even if you tried to play it straight for the most part.

Don't try to weaponize Jean against Emma or her fans (or vice versa), it always comes off childish, petty, and invoking the Madonna/Wh*re complex it's high time society moved beyond.

[Mercury]

On the scale of questionable" things Jean's done...this is utterly insignificant. Again...as explained in the story...she didn't violate Lorna's trust or take away her "agency" or neglected "consent" or any of the trendy rote terminologies some like to use (out of context).

As with every X-Man...she did what she felt was right in the moment. And as with all such decisions....it could have come back to bite her but it didn't. Regardless of how we all may feel about it...it really isn't that deep. Simply because the one person who is solely affected by this...Lorna...is actually very okies with it. If the narrative had gone in the other direction and Lorna wasn't okies with Jean's push then all the over-angst might...might...be justified.

Quoted for the truth.

So what happens if someone made one pitch and then made another one, which one is chosen?And why does Jean have the power to pick the pitch she feels is better even though someone changes their mind.
How do the people who didn't make it because Jean helped one of them out feel?
Also why didn't we actually get to see Lorna's pitch in her spotlight issue?

The thing is, Jean didn't stop anyone from joining the election. Also, I don't think Jean "pick[ed] the pitch" she felt was better as much as the one she knew for a fact to be more truthful. And how does she know which impulse of Lorna's was more truthful? She's a telepath. Finally, no one missed out on being elected to the team because of Jean. They missed out because Lorna was simply more popular and won the majority vote.

As for why we didn't see Lorna's speech, you'd have to ask Duggan. That has nothing to do with Jean as a character.

Again it's the same thing as consequences not justifying actions.W/ Bobby and now w/ Lorna Jean takes the decision out of their hands, the writer can make it so that it turns out it was the right choice but at the end of the day it doesn't justify the action.It's not her choice.

The bottom line in both cases you mentioned is that the ends justified the means. Bobby thinking and feeling that he was crazy dissipated and, in the end, he, i.e., both his younger and adult selves were grateful for having come out of the closet. Lorna was also grateful for having been pushed into the race.

She may have felt it was right, but it wasn't her choice in the first place.And this isn't a matter of life and death where she had to choose because stakes were very high.

I'm not saying it was her choice to make.

An example: I don't negate the fact that my coming out of the closet wasn't a decision for either my best friend or mother to make when they told me that they knew I was gay based on things I had written in a journal. And, yes, I was angry at them for impinging upon my privacy. However, that anger quickly morphed into relief and a genuine sense of acceptance. when I think about that time in my life now, I don't continue harping on the fact that it wasn't their decision to make to force me out of the closet. Instead, I am grateful that I had people who loved me enough to forcefully show me that they accepted me no matter who or what I was and am.

Also "It's quite elegant, actually.Telepathically bonded, any mutant who wishes to...."I think Lorna thought about it but at the time of voting didn't wish to be a part of the X-men.Jean changed that and went w/ what she thought earlier.Hence I said bending the truth.

This is fair, though I still don't think it properly defines what she did.

Again it's not something new, I stated before I don't think it's a big deal.But I do think people saying what she did what questionable do have a reason to say so

I agree with you. People do have the right to consider what she did questionable.

I mentioned Emma clearly having questionable morals, because you flooded a thread about an issue that had nothing to do with Emma with images of her being morally dubious. Everybody knows that she is and if they don't than they're kidding themselves. It's been part of her character from jump.

Claiming that I "flooded a thread" is a reach. And my point is that the fact that "everybody knows that [Emma] is [morally dubious/corrupt]" seems to be an excuse used to normalize her behavior, even when it has no positive outcomes. On the other hand, we'll have pages upon pages going about how what Jean did was terribly wrong. Again, the double standard is staggering.

Again my main point is that I don't think it's cool to create false dichotomies between fanbases because they are plenty of people who like all of these characters despite their differences. I'd prefer not to derail the thread with Emma talk because again, she was not the focus of this issue.

Excuse me, but I haven't created any false dichotomies.

Edit: I'm realizing I'm coming off more combative than I normally do. Definitely not my intention! Thankful that we can have these discussions and enjoy these stories together!

No worries and no need to feel the need to filter yourself. We're all having a discussion. If anything, it's a good sign when something has generated conversation.

[Mercury]

Don't try to weaponize Jean against Emma or her fans (or vice versa), it always comes off childish, petty, and invoking the Madonna/Wh*re complex it's high time society moved beyond.

Actually, the Madonna/Wh*re complex lies exactly at the center of thinking it's okay for Emma to do certain things because "it's in character," while simultaneously criticizing Jean for doing things that, although they fall in the same general category, are not done with the same intention or damaging results.

[davetvs]

Actually, the Madonna/Wh*re complex lies exactly at the center of thinking it's okay for Emma to do certain things because "it's in character," while simultaneously criticizing Jean for doing things that, although they fall in the same general category, are not done with the same intention or damaging results.

Actually, it isn't. If Wolverine (either one of them) fatally stabs someone, it wouldn't be cause for concern or hand-wringing about how the character is being used, because that sort of behavior is generally in keeping with how they have been portrayed in the past and what is generally accepted about their characters. The same if Emma decides to use her powers to change someone's mind, she's done that before and it's not out of character behavior for her. The same is not -typically- true for Jean the same way it wouldn't be typical for any other character who tends to skew closer to generically heroic (like most comic heroes do, including most of the X-Men) vs. morally ambiguous. It's not Madonna/Whore complex. They are just different characters. You brought Emma up for no reason. That's fine, we're here to debate and discuss, after all.

[Tank]

To point out the obvious...

Even if everyone agreed that whatever that "Emma..." bit was amounted to "Pretty Sketchy..."?

That would not wave a magic wand changing what Jean did if it amounted to "Basic Sketchy..."

I dont mind sketchy Jean. In fact she needs to get more sketchy. This whole love and kindness routine is too one note. She needs more layers and this issue was a start.

It’s interest when she’s allowed to do something that isn’t completely right but also isn’t completely wrong.

[Ambaryerno]

If Wolverine (either one of them) fatally stabs someone, it wouldn't be cause for concern or hand-wringing about how the character is being used, because that sort of behavior is generally in keeping with how they have been portrayed in the past and what is generally accepted about their characters.

If Laura were to casually fatally stab someone it WOULD be cause for concern or hand-wringing, because a central part of her character development over the last years was her choosing NOT to kill, even in circumstances that otherwise justified it (this is part of what made her putting Kimura down for good so poignant). That's half the problem many X-23 fans have with her characterization with this book already: That writers are forgetting about this because "She's Wolverine, and that means she has to be snarl Bub snikt stab kill."

[Mercury]

The same if Emma decides to use her powers to change someone's mind, she's done that before and it's not out of character behavior for her. The same is not -typically- true for Jean the same way it wouldn't be typical for any other character who tends to skew closer to generically heroic (like most comic heroes do, including most of the X-Men) vs. morally ambiguous. It's not Madonna/Whore complex... They are just different characters. You brought Emma up for no reason. That's fine, we're here to debate and discuss, after all.

I brought up Emma to highlight two things: 1) The double standard, which you have attributed to the varying degrees of generally accepted/acceptable behavior between characters, that Jean is held to, and 2) that, in this discussion, behavior isn't being admonished as much as characters are (i.e., "If Emma does it, well, she is morally ambiguous, so let's not talk about it. However, if Jean does it, well, that's not her and it's just wrong to do anyway.").

Jean is a complex character who has behaved in morally ambiguous ways in the past, including killing an unhinged mutant with her telepathy. She has also intentionally and unintentionally read, mindwiped, and taken control of the minds of others for various reasons. The fact that she is held to this Madonna standard and is criticized whenever she veers from it is troublesome to me.

Also, if a behavior is deemed unacceptable, it should be considered as such no matter what character partakes in it.

[davetvs]

If Laura were to casually fatally stab someone it WOULD be cause for concern or hand-wringing, because a central part of her character development over the last years was her choosing NOT to kill, even in circumstances that otherwise justified it (this is part of what made her putting Kimura down for good so poignant). That's half the problem many X-23 fans have with her characterization with this book already: That writers are forgetting about this because "She's Wolverine, and that means she has to be snarl Bub snikt stab kill."

I almost left "(either one of them)" out of the comment because I knew you'd come running. I'm not a big fan of how Laura's been used in this book so far either, to be fair. The few moments we've gotten with her did just make her seem like Logan-lite. I liked her telling Everett they need to talk because I don't think it makes sense for her to just disregard what happened in The Vault without investigation, but it came right after her seemingly not caring that Lorna used her body without consent which doesn't jive with her character to me.

[davetvs]

Jean is a complex character who has behaved in morally ambiguous ways in the past, including killing an unhinged mutant with her telepathy. She has also intentionally and unintentionally read, mindwiped, and taken control of the minds of others for various reasons. The fact that she is held to this Madonna standard and is criticized whenever she veers from it is troublesome to me.

Also, if a behavior is deemed unacceptable, it should be considered as such no matter what character partakes in it.

I agree with you that Jean should be allowed to be flawed. It doesn't take from her character, it adds to it. I also don't think anyone's arguing that any telepath who uses their powers to manipulate someone's thoughts/intentions/actions is doing something acceptable. Just that it's more in character for Emma to do unacceptable things which is why this behavior from her wouldn't raise an eyebrow like it does with Jean (even if it shouldn't, because most of the A-list psychics have done this at least once.) Plus, it can be argued that Jean did it to help Lorna (the same way she was "helping" Bobby, in her own unacceptable way.)

[Vegeta]

Lorna's mind being manipulated by others (Mesmero, the Shi'ar, Apocalypse, Malice, etc.) is her most enduring personality trait. This was just the writer being consistant with her previous appearances in the various X-Men titles.

[Mercury]

I agree with you that Jean should be allowed to be flawed. It doesn't take from her character, it adds to it.

I totally agree.

I also don't think anyone's arguing that any telepath who uses their powers to manipulate someone's thoughts/intentions/actions is doing something acceptable. Just that it's more in character for Emma to do unacceptable things which is why this behavior from her wouldn't raise an eyebrow like it does with Jean (even if it shouldn't, because most of the A-list psychics have done this at least once.) Plus, it can be argued that Jean did it to help Lorna (the same way she was "helping" Bobby, in her own unacceptable way.)

Exactly. The thing is, there are quite a few Jean haters who use instances like these to drag her even when their own favorite character has done equally and more reprehensible things. That's when I cock my eyebrow and jump in because, in reality, they're not questioning behaviors as much as looking for a reason to drag Jean. It would be annoying if it wasn't so utterly desperate and transparent.

Now, for those questioning the behavior with no biases, I totally get it and, to a certain degree, can agree with them.

[CoCoBandz]

Agreed, it really isn't that deep. At the end of the day Lorna is saving the world, and is front and center with improving mutant/human relations. It's a win.



Happy Thanksgiving!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Uhh what is that Ev is holding?

[Jackraow21]

Kind of looks like a watermelon.

[xhx23x]

Kind of looks like a watermelon.

Boiled Goldballs. A traditional krakoan dish.

[JB]

Boiled Goldballs. A traditional krakoan dish.

Oof! That took me out.