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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    So far this Beyond thing isn’t really grabbing my attention. Ben looking pathetic is so bothersome. This is the same guy that took out Venom after 5 years on the road with minimal experience. Even with the tricked out suit and a company behind him. Either Beyond is weakening Ben somehow or this is just faulty writing and I’m done with it. I’d rather go back to the Kindred BS. But then again even then Peter was getting wrecked all the time.
    Ben got so thoroughly trashed in his first round with Venom that he nearly bled out on his apartment floor.

  2. #17
    The Reliable Old Man
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    For what it's worth, I think people hyper-fixate too often on "______ would never lose a fight to ______ they are making the job" because then it veers into this idea that the hero should never struggle unless they are stacked up against only absurd circumstances.

    That said a lot about this arc has been underwhelming. Like if the plan was for the Beyond Corp to go through all this additional effort to train Ben into becoming their ideal hero, then they could have at least established that they wanted the "original" but then went with Ben as their second choice. Because not only does this kind of inadvertently make Ben come off as a goober, but it also kind of make whatever Beyond is scheming coming off as incompetent that their corporate-sponsored hero keeps getting his ass kicked. lol
    The fact that Beyond wants the original Spider-Man doesn't make sense, more considering Beyond's actions, besides for now the only time Ben got his ass kicked was against The Vampire Morbius, and in that fight it can be defined that the writer on duty nerfed Ben so that the Daughters of the Dragon could shine. Now in this issue at no point was Ben defeated, so he didn't get his ass kicked as you say.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    For what it's worth, I think people hyper-fixate too often on "______ would never lose a fight to ______ they are making the job" because then it veers into this idea that the hero should never struggle unless they are stacked up against only absurd circumstances.
    I don't mind if a character loses that much, the most important thing is how they lose, and considering Ben was Spider-Man for real for a while, and has Peter's memories, it's weird he looks like an amateur who became Spider-Man for the first time like last week with the Morbius fight lol.

  4. #19
    Amazing Member Reilly's Avatar
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    I love that Ben is finaly having second thoughts about Beyond. And I love that he hacked his suit. This right here, this I like. Gimme some good old Ben/Pete brain work and I'm happy.
    What I don't like is... Ben is acting like he was never Spider-Man or even Scarlet Spider before! He was acting better when his mind was twisted, now he is... I don't know, he is constantly written to be beaten. He forgots his old tricks and stuff. I dunno, maybe it's because Beyond is putting him into that upgrade machine? The suit is better but the mind is weaker?
    Ben was a better Spider-Man when he was on his own. This whole Beyond thing is restricting and distracting him. It's good he's having second thoughts.

    Part me of me wishes Marcus is going to become a "Ganke/MCU Ned" for Ben during or after Beyond. I don't know why but I like this guy. Knowing Ben's "Parker Luck" Marcus is probably the evilest person ever though...
    Last edited by Reilly; 11-24-2021 at 03:21 PM.

  5. #20
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    3) I love his Kraven.
    I think Ziglar wrote the best main continuity Kraven since the whole Grim Hunt kerfuffle. Kraven was pigeonholed in gimmicks after that ("Please kill me, but I won't ask nicely!" and the whole Hunted setup which took a whole lot of time and then had Spencer just lifting verbatim from DeMatteis at every turn he could).

    It reminded me of Zdarsky's take on Life Story, when he says "I can not hunt the sun" and how he's actually relieved Peter's back to "being strong". You let his motif of the whole bum-backwards "honor of the hunt" take centerstage instead of whatever long running plotline he's stuck into with dashes of "oh, Kraven? He kills people, but he just does it with a hunting motif". And I mean, sure, he killed the guy to lure Ben in, but at least that was about it. How he was being written just seemed to kind of make Kraven a hunter-based slasher villain, almost. Mostly the Scarlet Spider run if anything (I dig it, but anyway).
    Discovering/CONFESSING! the nature of evil... one retcon at a time.

  6. #21
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Generally good observations. Yeah, Ben seems really off his game, but that could be due to the humongous amount of psychological and emotional pressure he's under from both the Beyond Corporation, which has been increasingly obvious about its lack of regard for anything outside its own ends and goals, and from himself trying to live up to Peter's example as Spider-Man. Basically, he needs a serious confidence boost, and fast, or he might not make it that long.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Just read the issue, this Kraven talks like he's the original, specifically when he says he missed Spidey's fighting spirit, talking like he saw it many times, when it was only twice lol.

    This didn't read like a half issue like so many others, Ben's speech pattern, I'm not sure if it's Ben accurate, 'cause it's making me think of Peter, well, when he's fighting that is, before that it felt different, good different.

    Thinking of it, both clones are making me think of the originals, that's curious lol.

    Either way, this one was kinda fun, wonder if Kraven somehow made traps around the whole city lol.

  8. #23
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Just read the issue, this Kraven talks like he's the original, specifically when he says he missed Spidey's fighting spirit, talking like he saw it many times, when it was only twice lol.
    I mean, for all intents and purposes he's supposed to be. Like, he's a clone, but he's basically so we can have Kraven around without undoing Kraven's death so everyone's just going to act like he's Kraven and he's going to act like he's Kraven.

    I know it's confusing and nonsensical but it is what it is.
    Either way, this one was kinda fun, wonder if Kraven somehow made traps around the whole city lol.
    This should be a plot in the upcoming game.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, for all intents and purposes he's supposed to be. Like, he's a clone, but he's basically so we can have Kraven around without undoing Kraven's death so everyone's just going to act like he's Kraven and he's going to act like he's Kraven.

    I know it's confusing and nonsensical but it is what it is.
    Yeah, it's what I expected would happen since he took Kraven's costume at the end of Hunted, but I still find it kinda funny that it's happening lol.

    This should be a plot in the upcoming game.
    A friend of mine suggested, and I think I mentioned here, that Kraven's traps could essentially replace Taskmaster's side missions, although that was before Miles' game was even out, and it seems Kraven will have a bigger role in Spider-Man 2.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    I think Ziglar wrote the best main continuity Kraven since the whole Grim Hunt kerfuffle. Kraven was pigeonholed in gimmicks after that ("Please kill me, but I won't ask nicely!" and the whole Hunted setup which took a whole lot of time and then had Spencer just lifting verbatim from DeMatteis at every turn he could).
    I loved this but as of right now this Kraven isn't even close to Hunted.The entire point of Hunted was to be a mirror to KLH, because they brought him back and Spencer had to fix their mess(again).Not to mention fixing Black Cat's character, the aspect of the Lizard and his kid and how far Peter is willing to go. Kraven's realization of what made "Spider" who he was and his death.Ya'll really will diss Spencer any chance you get lmfao

    This Kraven has been just an in-character rendition of Kraven, not to mention he seems to be going for the "I'm doing this to make you stronger" cliche.

  11. #26

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    I wish Ben and Kraven could have a heart to heart about how they’re both clones of the original versions of themselves, but I feel like Marvel has forgotten Kraven is a clone

  12. #27
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Okay, Benthusiasts! I'm bringing you along on my re-read of the issue! Let's go!

    1) I wonder to what degree Marcus is "in" on whatever is going on with Beyond and their likely nefariousness. I can't decide whether I want him to be good or bad. He's a fun character, nevertheless.

    2) David, aka Guy 'Bout to be Murdered, is singing "What a Fool Believes" by Kenny Loggins. What DOES a fool believe?

    3) Is the supposed "firmware update" actually doing something to Ben? Is it the cause of any and all memories Ben may be having with his memory?

    4) Maybe it's the 90s Clone Saga Reader in me, but when Ben gives his little speech to Marcus about being his own man, I can't help but wonder whether the writer is laughing somewhere.

    5) Ben never feels more like Ben than when he's interacting with Peter and MJ (and Kaine) in an authentic way. I like the interaction between Ben and MJ here, because it lacks the coldness that was present at the beginning of Beyond. I didn't mind it then because I could see it warranted by the context of the story; I just hope this shows them on the right track towards feeling like a family again. In fact, I say we make Ziglar put his money where he put Ben's mouth(?!): Ben says he can't wait for them to do good on the streets together, and I can't either! Well, we need a Spidey satellite title written by Ziglar that's just a continual team-up between Peter and Ben. Sensational Spider-Men.

    6) I like when Ben says he's moved on from the question of who is Spider-Man and is now working on WHAT is Spider-Man. I like the serious implication that Ben has accepted his worthiness of being Spider-Man. Now: what does it mean to be Spider-Man? I think the argument could be made that, during his original stint as Spidey, Ben was so overjoyed in the role that he didn't analyze this particular question -- and he didn't need to, because it came so easy to him at that time. But our Ben has lived on since then, and I can understand why, at this point, he has to ask himself the question of what it means to be Spider-Man -- not for him, but for others.

    7) I love the moment with the little girl. Just further establishes that Ben knows he can and should be Spider-Man.

    8) Ya'll didn't see the in-story explanation for why Ben seems to be getting his butt handed to him so much? Seems Ben is currently excelling most at stopping bank robbers and saving little girls more so than fighting Living Vampires or whatever else. I can believe that would be the case.

    9) "You look dead, Andrew." Ben would have a darker sense of humor, wouldn't he?

    10) I'm paraphrasing to make a point here: Kraven says he knows every animal call, and for Spider-Man it's the sound of a dying man's broken bones. Is that the darkest way of referencing Uncle Ben's death ever?

    11) I love the idea that Kraven feels he's bestowing a grand gift to his prey. This feels like a good direction to take the heart of this "new" Kraven.

    12) "Oh damn. That's wild. You crazy for this one, K."

    13) After getting drugged, Ben is told by Kraven that his great awakening is coming. I'm intrigued by the potential layers of implications here, and how much THIS Kraven knows about THIS Spider-Man. After all, he was trailing Ben and Janine on their date in prior issues; but was that merely because Kraven was hunting members of Beyond in general? Does Kraven know that Ben is Spidey? Does he know that Peter is, for that matter? What he does and doesn't know plays a huge role in determining how much meaning that final line has. Will Ben decide to investigate Beyond while drugged up? Will it be some deeper understanding of his own purpose in the world? I'm excited to find out -- and I hope that last page in particular is indicative of the art we're going to get next issue!

    RE: Ben getting his butt kicked by Kraven -- This issue actually reminded me of the post- Clone Saga storyline in which Alyosha makes his original appearance and drugs up Peter. Villains get the jump on the hero sometimes. Doesn't necessary mean anything beyond that.

    Relatedly, my hope is that Ben not being able to take down Morbius is actual something that gets picked up later. Again, I recall the post- Clone Saga era storyline featuring Hydra vs Spidey, SHOC, Hammerhead -- and Morbius, who had been captured issues prior. Maybe he'll break out from Beyond -- but my hope is that it's as an ally to Ben instead of foe.

    RE: whoever mentioned that new spider gizmo that wraps up bad guys -- Fair point to question why we haven't seen it. The writers made such a big point of his new suit and gadgets, and it'd be nice to see that carried through a little better from writer to writer, even if it doesn't necessarily alter the outcomes of his battles.

    -Pav, who hopes these Kraven issues act as sort of "Okay, This has been Part 1" and we're about to move the story forward in Part 2 of Beyond...
    Last edited by Pav; 11-24-2021 at 09:57 PM.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyspideyfan View Post
    I wish Ben and Kraven could have a heart to heart about how they’re both clones of the original versions of themselves, but I feel like Marvel has forgotten Kraven is a clone

    Absolutely, the philosophical aspect b/w these 2 is begging to be used and I'm hoping they capitalize on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    1) I wonder to what degree Marcus is "in" on whatever is going on with Beyond and their likely nefariousness. I can't decide whether I want him to be good or bad. He's a fun character, nevertheless.
    He's a genius-ly written character in that he's the most we've seen of Beyond and we can't yet tell if he's a good or bad guy.Everyone else seems black(maxine) or white(the other employees).I'd say w/ what we know of Kafka's future in this arc that she and Marcus are the 2 characters in the corp I'm most looking forward to seeing


    3) Is the supposed "firmware update" actually doing something to Ben? Is it the cause of any and all memories Ben may be having with his memory?
    Seems like a slow burn thing.Although maybe it's just Kafka, IIRC someone mentioned she had a memory machine or smth.No clue if that's true but if it is then it's def. her.

    5) Ben never feels more like Ben than when he's interacting with Peter and MJ (and Kaine) in an authentic way. I like the interaction between Ben and MJ here, because it lacks the coldness that was present at the beginning of Beyond. I didn't mind it then because I could see it warranted by the context of the story; I just hope this shows them on the right track towards feeling like a family again. In fact, I say we make Ziglar put his money where he put Ben's mouth(?!): Ben says he can't wait for them to do good on the streets together, and I can't either! Well, we need a Spidey satellite title written by Ziglar that's just a continual team-up between Peter and Ben. Sensational Spider-Men.
    Yes please

    10) I'm paraphrasing to make a point here: Kraven says he knows every animal call, and for Spider-Man it's the sound of a dying man's broken bones. Is that the darkest way of referencing Uncle Ben's death ever?
    I felt it was just pointing out the best way to draw him out is harming the innocent.I think it was RYV where Peter said walking into traps to save lives is what they do or something along those lines.But it may be an Uncle Ben reference as well.

    In this week's Infinity Spider-man comic, a sleep-deprived almost haunted of his game Peter walked into Spencer Smyth's lab because he called in bomb threats if he didn't show up.Ofc. there were no bombs and it was just a ruse.

    Relatedly, my hope is that Ben not being able to take down Morbius is actual something that gets picked up later. Again, I recall the post- Clone Saga era storyline featuring Hydra vs Spidey, SHOC, Hammerhead -- and Morbius, who had been captured issues prior. Maybe he'll break out from Beyond -- but my hope is that it's as an ally to Ben instead of foe.
    Maybe, I feel we should also keep in not they still have his limb and Maxine asked for it.Unless it was just Kelly shenanigans we should see it play in later.


    who hopes these Kraven issues act as sort of "Okay, This has been Part 1" and we're about to move the story forward in Part 2 of Beyond...
    I mean after this we have Doc Ock wrecking Beyond and then Goblin Queen destroying the bugle.Oh and the Miles sub-plot w/ Beyond.Rest is Peter/MJ/Aunt May stuff.

    As Hickman said solicits do spoil the mystery of storytelling in comics.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    Immediate thoughts after having finished the issue:
    4) I'm very 50/50 on it, but I still can't shake the feeling that this Ben isn't the only Ben.

    5) Did anyone else notice that Ben's eyes change color from brown to blue?
    "ben" is actually spidercide confirmed

    jk

    or is it
    troo fan or death

  15. #30
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    The entire point of Hunted was to be a mirror to KLH
    If it was meant to be a mirror, I could only call it a funhouse mirror where things get bent out and stretched from what you'd expect. KLH fired on all cylinders especially on a psychological dread aspect and made Kraven rather menacing, while Hunted basically gave me this feeling for the most part of it:


    Kraven's realization of what made "Spider" who he was and his death.
    In Kaine's book it seemed to be all but confirmed that he lifted the curse from Kraven, since it said he needed a spider to kill him. Kaine killed Kraven (stopped his heart) but managed to jumpstart it as a neat little way of playing with the wording so he was already free of immortality. But then Hunted doesn't even have Kraven wanting to settle the score with him once and for all (he was the one they used to bring him back, after all) or lure the other spiders in for his ultimate endgame of making Peter kill him... the guy he already knew wouldn't crack from the last time he really went to town on him.

    Some people even theorized at the time that he died just because he could actually be killed already, and not that it had something to do with the whole "the Spider" motif. It's so ambiguous since they didn't address the Kaine storyarc that you can make the case for it in the end.

    Ya'll really will diss Spencer any chance you get lmfao
    Not like I just want to take a dump on him at every opportunity because I must, but even at the time I found Hunted lukewarm and his take on Kraven didn't go many places. I thought the idea of Kraven leading a tribe, which he used at the beginning of the arc, legitimately badass and I think something could have been made of that. In the end, though, what we got was yet another Kraven offspring we're supposed to take as the ultimate replacement - and then Spencer himself worked AGAINST that when in Sinister War it seemed like everybody KNEW this was just a replacement and not Kraven proper.

    It is what it is.
    Discovering/CONFESSING! the nature of evil... one retcon at a time.

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