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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witchfan View Post
    Wanda is not a has been, she is the moment in 2021. 23 Emmy nominations for her show and still the writers don't want to use her. The writers are out of touch.
    Or maybe they weren't fans of the Emmy show and didn't watch it.......

  2. #167
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    I find Wanda Maximoff a far more interesting character as a mutant, because I was an X-Men fan first, and because, despite my enjoyment of many Avengers stories, they are in many ways a generic superhero team. They do not have a hook other than a vague Justice League-like gathering of superheroes. So, in the diversity of the Avengers, having her be a mutant and a mage is far more interesting than just being a mage.

    Is Wanda more a non-mutant character? Maybe. I wonder if you measured her periods of active appearance, how much of it is really divorced from her mutant history? The last 15 years have definitely been heavily slanted that way, and she began that way, and I remember several stories where her status as Magneto's daughter was an important issue.

    Maybe the real solution is that some stories should just end. Maybe the Marvel Universe has run its course and it's too convoluted to continue in its current state, with too many hands in the pot, too many characters to account for, and too many different perspectives about what a character's "true" nature is. If that were to be the case -- an end to the Marvel Universe as we know it -- I'd recommend two new universes instead. One with mutants and one without. Honestly, mutants have never made sense in a world where non-mutant superheroes exist and do not face the same level of prejudice, as if regular humans can smell the X-gene or something.

  3. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddcam View Post
    I find Wanda Maximoff a far more interesting character as a mutant, because I was an X-Men fan first, and because, despite my enjoyment of many Avengers stories, they are in many ways a generic superhero team. They do not have a hook other than a vague Justice League-like gathering of superheroes. So, in the diversity of the Avengers, having her be a mutant and a mage is far more interesting than just being a mage.

    Is Wanda more a non-mutant character? Maybe. I wonder if you measured her periods of active appearance, how much of it is really divorced from her mutant history? The last 15 years have definitely been heavily slanted that way, and she began that way, and I remember several stories where her status as Magneto's daughter was an important issue.

    Maybe the real solution is that some stories should just end. Maybe the Marvel Universe has run its course and it's too convoluted to continue in its current state, with too many hands in the pot, too many characters to account for, and too many different perspectives about what a character's "true" nature is. If that were to be the case -- an end to the Marvel Universe as we know it -- I'd recommend two new universes instead. One with mutants and one without. Honestly, mutants have never made sense in a world where non-mutant superheroes exist and do not face the same level of prejudice, as if regular humans can smell the X-gene or something.
    Most of her history has stories that don't involve her mutant identity. It's thousands of comics spanning 57 years. Her mutant related ones in the past 15 years are HoM, AvX, Uncanny, X-Men Empyre and this. Her non-ones have been her solo, Avengers No Surrender, Avengers No Road Home, Avengers Empyre, Doctor Strange and Strange Academy. And in HoM was when she removed her mutant powers and became powerless for a time. AvX she was only there as an Avenger, not a mutant. Uncanny, still an Avenger. Even X-Men Empyre, she's not even a mutant at this point. And she's not a mutant in ToM. A lot of those appearances had to do with what she did to mutants, not her being a mutant herself.

    DC tried rebooting it's universe. It was a mess. No it doesn't need to be rebooted because some people prefer Wanda as a mutant. Even though it was never a focus for that character.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by GenericUsername View Post
    Most of her history has stories that don't involve her mutant identity. It's thousands of comics spanning 57 years. Her mutant related ones in the past 15 years are HoM, AvX, Uncanny, X-Men Empyre and this. Her non-ones have been her solo, Avengers No Surrender, Avengers No Road Home, Avengers Empyre, Doctor Strange and Strange Academy. And in HoM was when she removed her mutant powers and became powerless for a time. AvX she was only there as an Avenger, not a mutant. Uncanny, still an Avenger. Even X-Men Empyre, she's not even a mutant at this point. And she's not a mutant in ToM. A lot of those appearances had to do with what she did to mutants, not her being a mutant herself.

    DC tried rebooting it's universe. It was a mess. No it doesn't need to be rebooted because some people prefer Wanda as a mutant. Even though it was never a focus for that character.
    She was a mutant for nearly all of her history. In some ways it strengthened the Avengers, because all types of people, including mutants, aliens, and gods could be Avengers.

    Speaking of its quite clearly the Avengers office currently has no use for her, which is why she appears in this X-Men story. Pietro is back to calling Magneto dad in dark ages. So itís back to being mutants and the children of Magneto for the twins, as that made them a part of a much bigger family one can milk for stories.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by toddcam View Post
    I find Wanda Maximoff a far more interesting character as a mutant, because I was an X-Men fan first, and because, despite my enjoyment of many Avengers stories, they are in many ways a generic superhero team. They do not have a hook other than a vague Justice League-like gathering of superheroes. So, in the diversity of the Avengers, having her be a mutant and a mage is far more interesting than just being a mage.

    Is Wanda more a non-mutant character? Maybe. I wonder if you measured her periods of active appearance, how much of it is really divorced from her mutant history? The last 15 years have definitely been heavily slanted that way, and she began that way, and I remember several stories where her status as Magneto's daughter was an important issue.

    Maybe the real solution is that some stories should just end. Maybe the Marvel Universe has run its course and it's too convoluted to continue in its current state, with too many hands in the pot, too many characters to account for, and too many different perspectives about what a character's "true" nature is. If that were to be the case -- an end to the Marvel Universe as we know it -- I'd recommend two new universes instead. One with mutants and one without. Honestly, mutants have never made sense in a world where non-mutant superheroes exist and do not face the same level of prejudice, as if regular humans can smell the X-gene or something.
    Mutants are connected to eternals, sorcery, cosmic, etc. They cannot and will not be separated from the rest of Marvel. Wolverine has a past with Captain America and the Black Widow.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    It was worse. But the difference is not the magnitude of the situation, itís the perspective of the mutants/humans about both of those things. The annihilation of the Díbari was done to aliens, so Earthling people (like the mutants and the humans) donít feel much connected to the incident, meanwhile Wandaís spell affected earthling people (mutants) so they do have strong opinions on that. Itís a bit hypocritical? Maybe yes, but not unexpected. People in general tend to be more concerned with situations that happened to them, and not so much with what happened to others. On the other hand, the Shiíar used to be very harsh on the Phoenix situation, even when Jean was dead, even with the teenage time-displaced Jean. The affected part (Shiíar) werenít very forgiving for a good chunk of time. I donít think the alien races have much hate for Wanda for example.
    I wonder why the Shiíar are now forgiving? Is it because of Empress Xandra? She is her motherís daughter.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    Havenít the X-Books been ignoring that retcon though?
    Yes. Jean tells the mutants she was the Dark Phoenix, and to bite for her so she can continue to atone and make the world and universe a better place.

  8. #173

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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    She was a mutant for nearly all of her history. In some ways it strengthened the Avengers, because all types of people, including mutants, aliens, and gods could be Avengers.

    Speaking of its quite clearly the Avengers office currently has no use for her, which is why she appears in this X-Men story. Pietro is back to calling Magneto dad in dark ages. So it’s back to being mutants and the children of Magneto for the twins, as that made them a part of a much bigger family one can milk for stories.
    Factually yes. But representative wise, no. She did not have focus in mutant related stories that had to do with her being a mutant. She didn't spend any time on the mutant side outside of appearances. They did not invest in it.

    This event is not unlike other events she's been in where it's very highly mandated and controlled. This is nothing new for the character. Dark Ages is alt earth where Wanda died immediately.
    Love is for souls, not bodies.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    This has probably been asked before but why can Jean be forgiven for genocide but not Wanda? What Jean did was arguably worse.
    Firstly, neither Jean nor the clone the Phoenix Force fashioned after her committed genocide, which, per Oxford Dictionary, is defined as follows:

    the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group
    The Phoenix clone-turned Dark Phoenix consumed a star, which resulted in it going supernova and decimating D'Bari. Dark Phoenix was not aware that consuming the star would result in the death of billions.





    Secondly, the Shi'ar Death Commandos eventually murdered Jean's entire family while she was still dead, though Rachel witnessed and recounted the massacre in Uncanny X-Men #467. The scene is long and gruesome, so I'll just post this page:



    Later, in Guardians of the Galaxy #13, as a time-displaced teenager, Jean was put on trial by Gladiator and other members of the Shi'ar, but, after a battle with Gladiator, which was prompted by her finding out that he had been responsible for having her family murdered, the fight ended in a stalemate.

    Subsequently, Oracle came to Jean's defense, noting, "This Jean Grey is...different than the one you so fear, Gladiator. She already has a different relationship to her mind and power set... This fight is over. It is done."

    Towards the end of the issue, the Guardians of the Galaxy's Peter Quill comes to Jean's defense and warns Gladiator, "The Earth is under our protection, Gladiator. Next time you won't even get near it." Jean was officially resurrected a few years later, and her relationship with the Shi'ar has been different ever since.
    Last edited by Mercury; 11-29-2021 at 05:57 PM.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    I wonder why the Shiíar are now forgiving? Is it because of Empress Xandra? She is her motherís daughter.
    The trial of Jean Grey kinda "closed" that chapter, Gladiator seemed placated about it at the end (although it was her teenage self and not "the" Jean Grey). And yes I think Xandra is like Lilandra in that way and does not wish revenge on Jean.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starchilde View Post
    The trial of Jean Grey kinda "closed" that chapter, Gladiator seemed placated about it at the end (although it was her teenage self and not "the" Jean Grey). And yes I think Xandra is like Lilandra in that way and does not wish revenge on Jean.
    It’s been established that time-displaced teenage Jean is “the” Jean Grey. Put it this way: If teenage Jean had been killed during her time-displacement, the Dark Phoenix Saga would have never happened.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Agent of Chaos View Post
    This has probably been asked before but why can Jean be forgiven for genocide but not Wanda? What Jean did was arguably worse.
    Because people are determined to care about the Decimation era. I personally don't care for that era, nor really for the one or two characters that era was devoted to promoting and therefore couldn't care less about Wanda continuing to be punished. Decimation and Wanda's excuse for it have been established/solved more than once already. Frankly I am tired of hearing about that era. If this story isn't to re-establish Wanda's mutanthood it will have been an utter waste of time. And I don't even care that much about Wanda, but there should be something worthwhile in story harkening back to this beat yet again.
    #FreeSCEMMA

    "Yes, it was a kind of adultery, but at the same time Jean wasn't being his wife anymore. I just felt that the spark between them had died out and it was time to give Scott someone else."
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  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Relugus View Post
    This article from earlier this year, basically says Wanda and Vision's time has passed, and Marvel has moved on from them, and new, more nuanced (by which I think they mean less melodramatic) and more relevant characters (Wanda is perceived as pre-feminist and very conservative, thus she is viewed as out of date, while modern Marvel writers have also tended to write Vision as a generic robot with no emotions, they have all accepted Byrne's view of the character. They have tended to portray the likes of Vision, Machine Man and Death's Head as inferior stooges or background props to human characters, a complete reversal of their 1980s portrayals) have superceded them:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenr...el-comics/amp/
    Which is BS, if popular male characters can easily shed parts of them that would be considered distasteful/problemetic and be reinvented for modern audience, so can female characters. You don't see popular Golden Age/Silver Age characters getting dumped simply because they are created based upon ideals which you will consider conservative today, they get reinvented/rewritten/re-interpreted.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    With Wanda, besides the Disassembled/House of M disasters, I agree that retconning her relationship with Magneto and also distancing her from Pietro were terrible for the character. It's not a matter of "the woman can't survive without the men around" or some non-sense like that: you can remove say, Reed Richards from Sue, Ben, Valeria, etc, but he would be a lot less interesting without them and the relationships that come from the association.
    I mean it's more like salt upon wounds which won't affect her much if the wounds aren't there in the first place.
    Also comparing Magnus family to Richards is a stretch, especially for Wanda, Wanda to Magnus family is probably only more relevant than Kang to Richards.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    She was a mutant for nearly all of her history. In some ways it strengthened the Avengers, because all types of people, including mutants, aliens, and gods could be Avengers.

    Speaking of its quite clearly the Avengers office currently has no use for her, which is why she appears in this X-Men story. Pietro is back to calling Magneto dad in dark ages. So it’s back to being mutants and the children of Magneto for the twins, as that made them a part of a much bigger family one can milk for stories.
    It doesn't really matter to herself though.

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