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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I allready wrote my thought about this annual in the Red Hood thread.

    Jason has been written worse in these type of team up stories, but how Taylor wrote Dick and Jason felt still pretty unbalanced.

    In a team up like that I feel you should highlight at least something cool about the guest character, and have him at least contribute something that ideally the main character can't do. And that was imo not the case here. Jason didn't really contributed anything to solve the case and Dick could have easily done everything on his own.

    The whole thing comes of a little like Jason needing the help of his big brother Dick because he has no idea how to solve this case on his own.

    In contrast Tim and Barbara appeared sofar in Taylors run because Dick needed their help.
    There's nothing wrong with needing help, and admitting that shows growth...which is a good thing.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    There's nothing wrong with needing help, and admitting that shows growth...which is a good thing.
    But that's imo not really what happend in this story.

    And the thing is that is quite often like that if he appears in cross overs with other Batfamily members.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    It really wasn't the worst Jason has been written, I'll say that (Battle for the Cowl, King, and Morrison take the credit for that). But it was also not great. Many Jason fans aren't exactly thrilled about him using the crowbar to begin with, and the reasoning Taylor used here was the exact kind I didn't want.

    Him beating the crap out of the guy that made his mom OD? Sure. Him still being a hot head though, when he's mellowed out and a strategic thinker, is a kick in the cajones.

  4. #19
    Always Rakzo
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    Jason using a crowbar is like Bruce using a gun.

    Taylor's reasoning is just baffling (Then again, questionable characterization is Taylor's M.O.).

  5. #20
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    just to clarify I don't think that this comic was bad, but it continues a trend in how Dick and Jason written that is really annoying me.

    In Dick's case they are completely ignoring the flaws he used to have, and in Jason's case they are only highlighting the flaws and never his strength.
    Last edited by Aahz; 12-01-2021 at 02:39 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Jason using a crowbar is like Bruce using a gun.

    Taylor's reasoning is just baffling (Then again, questionable characterization is Taylor's M.O.).
    Hey thats not on Taylor his just trying to be consistent with Jason since that is how he is presently

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    It really wasn't the worst Jason has been written, I'll say that (Battle for the Cowl, King, and Morrison take the credit for that). But it was also not great. Many Jason fans aren't exactly thrilled about him using the crowbar to begin with, and the reasoning Taylor used here was the exact kind I didn't want.

    Him beating the crap out of the guy that made his mom OD? Sure. Him still being a hot head though, when he's mellowed out and a strategic thinker, is a kick in the cajones.
    ...I've literally never seen that Jason was written poorly under Morrison. That story in Batman and Robin and the one before it in Battle for the Cowl were a huge part of his growth as a character.
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  8. #23
    Always Rakzo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Hey thats not on Taylor his just trying to be consistent with Jason since that is how he is presently
    Haven't seen Jason using a crowbar in Seeley's Robins.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakzo View Post
    Haven't seen Jason using a crowbar in Seeley's Robins.
    that takes place before nightwings new run starts

    This issue is after fear state and Task force Z

  10. #25
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    ...I've literally never seen that Jason was written poorly under Morrison. That story in Batman and Robin and the one before it in Battle for the Cowl were a huge part of his growth as a character.
    Yeah, his growth into the villain Dick fans, or Dickbats readers, needed then, even when he wasn't anything like he was in Under the Hood with Winnick and Coundown with Dini characters wise.

    Not into what Red Hood, Jason Todd fans, were expecting. Jason's story was popular because he was in a gray zone of an antagonistic vigilante, and an antivillain who was actually pensive, cold, strategist, a planner, even if he was violent. And did things discretely, only using dramatics to hurt people he wanted to hurt, because he's very emotional, even if he's not hot fire.

    Sure it was what I found when reading both books.
    You could say he wasn't really somewhat like he was back in Under the Hood a little bit until the last story arc in Batman and Robin. Written by Winnick.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 04:17 PM.
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  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rac7d* View Post
    Hey thats not on Taylor his just trying to be consistent with Jason since that is how he is presently
    No no, that is on him, since he decided to try and explain it. The explanation could happen in Task Force Z for example, and that will be on them ^^

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    No no, that is on him, since he decided to try and explain it. The explanation could happen in Task Force Z for example, and that will be on them ^^
    It would be the same, he probably checked with that books writer before doing anything that would go against Task force Z version. Its really not and the reason he uses the crowbars doesnt matter because its stupid and choice most likely from the top.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaresh View Post
    Yeah, his growth into the villain Dick fans, or Dickbats readers, needed then, even when he wasn't anything like he was in Under the Hood with Winnick and Coundown with Dini characters wise.

    Not into what Red Hood, Jason Todd fans, were expecting. Jason's story was popular because he was in a gray zone of an antagonistic vigilante, and an antivillain who was actually pensive, cold, strategist, a planner, even if he was violent. And did things discretely, only using dramatics to hurt people he wanted to hurt, because he's very emotional, even if he's not hot fire.

    Sure it was what I found when reading both books.
    You could say he wasn't really somewhat like he was back in Under the Hood a little bit until the last story arc in Batman and Robin. Written by Winnick.
    Were we in alternate Earths??

    The stories I read were in Battle For The Cowl Jason showed Gotham his vision of Batman in the wake of Bruce's death which was pretty much just what he had been doing as Red Hood previously only in a Batman Cowl, and then after getting beaten he then tried to be better than Batman and extension Dick in his stint in Batman and Robin and then in the second Batman and Robin story we see him seeing the error in his ways and trying to go be his own man in his own way that would make Bruce proud which lead to a great run in his own title.
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  14. #29
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    No no, that is on him, since he decided to try and explain it. The explanation could happen in Task Force Z for example, and that will be on them ^^
    Merciless, but true XDDD.

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Were we in alternate Earths??

    The stories I read were in Battle For The Cowl Jason showed Gotham his vision of Batman in the wake of Bruce's death which was pretty much just what he had been doing as Red Hood previously only in a Batman Cowl, and then after getting beaten he then tried to be better than Batman and extension Dick in his stint in Batman and Robin and then in the second Batman and Robin story we see him seeing the error in his ways and trying to go be his own man in his own way that would make Bruce proud which lead to a great run in his own title.
    The thing is, you can use similar, not the same, but similar words, and still deliver a completely different characerization. I invite you to go read Under the Hood and Lost Days (which wasn't out at the time, but still is written by Winnick and offers his vision of the character), and then go get BftC and Morrison's Jason in the first story arc he has in Batman and Robin, and compare. Because that's basically what I did, with Countdown and two issues of the Outsiders in between, and I was absolutely disappointed, even pissed, for how unrecognisable Jason was in those two stories.

    And I wasn't the only one.

    Things like motivations (yes, motivations!), theatricals, actual way of taking down the bad guys, his way of talking (ridiculous, and a bit unfair, because it's different writers but still true), the things he care about (he cared for people, did you know? Sometimes, even for the criminals). It was... noticeable.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 12-01-2021 at 05:00 PM.
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  15. #30
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Were we in alternate Earths??

    The stories I read were in Battle For The Cowl Jason showed Gotham his vision of Batman in the wake of Bruce's death which was pretty much just what he had been doing as Red Hood previously only in a Batman Cowl, and then after getting beaten he then tried to be better than Batman and extension Dick in his stint in Batman and Robin and then in the second Batman and Robin story we see him seeing the error in his ways and trying to go be his own man in his own way that would make Bruce proud which lead to a great run in his own title.
    There was a second Jason story in B&R? Was that when Tomasi was writing it?

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