Fox' Quicksilver vs MCU Makkari

[big_adventure]

"Underselling" what Quicksilver can do is impossible since nobody's been able to present hard numbers on what they think his speed actually is. Its only conjecture and opinion at this point, and you know as well as I that Rumbles doesn't operate on conjecture.

So what about those calcs?

Also:



All done via momentum, as mentioned. Or are you actually claiming that Quicksilver actually has superstrength as well?

He has massively superhuman striking force, lifting force, etc. He grabs multiple people at a time and runs at solid fractions of lightspeed with them. Throwing someone a kilometer requires the strength to accelerate them to the speed that makes that a thing, which he does casually. If I put a 50kg weight in your hand, asked you to hold it straight up while you were standing on a Bugatti, then accelerated the Bugatti at max, you would drop the weight behind you, because, while you might be able to hold that straight up, you cannot hold it straight up and ALSO deal with well over 1g of straight line acceleration. You aren't close to strong enough. Quicksilver grabs fools who weigh that or more, and accelerates at, conservatively, billions of times that rate. So yeah, super strength. Of course that's related somewhat to his ability to generate ludicrous kinetic energy, but the matter still has to be strong enough to do that. He clearly is.

[Nik Hasta]

Gonna just flag that I don't think Quicksilver ever throws someone a kilometre.

Like a couple of hundred metres, maybe 500 or so but nowhere near an entire kilometre.

[Twickster]

He has massively superhuman striking force, lifting force, etc. He grabs multiple people at a time and runs at solid fractions of lightspeed with them. Throwing someone a kilometer requires the strength to accelerate them to the speed that makes that a thing, which he does casually. If I put a 50kg weight in your hand, asked you to hold it straight up while you were standing on a Bugatti, then accelerated the Bugatti at max, you would drop the weight behind you, because, while you might be able to hold that straight up, you cannot hold it straight up and ALSO deal with well over 1g of straight line acceleration. You aren't close to strong enough. Quicksilver grabs fools who weigh that or more, and accelerates at, conservatively, billions of times that rate. So yeah, super strength. Of course that's related somewhat to his ability to generate ludicrous kinetic energy, but the matter still has to be strong enough to do that. He clearly is.

Yeah... this is a stretch. Show me a feat of Quicksilver carrying a weight near anything that you're claiming at normal speed, anything. That's the kind of feat involved that would prove Quicksilver has superstrength. None? Then we're done talking here.

[Twickster]

Also, just quoting myself here since an answer would settle the question quite definitively:

"Underselling" what Quicksilver can do is impossible since nobody's been able to present hard numbers on what they think his speed actually is. Its only conjecture and opinion on how cool the slow-mo is at this point, and you know as well as I that Rumbles doesn't operate on conjecture.

So what about those calcs?

We *know* how fast Makarri is. How fast, exactly, is Quicksilver? And no, opinions that can be condensed to "QS' slow-mo is cool looking" does not satisfy the standards of debate.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

https://youtu.be/_ntMteVqdkk

Maybe this link would help calc QS?

[Twickster]

https://youtu.be/_ntMteVqdkk

Maybe this link would help calc QS?

So, that vid calc'd Quicksilver's speed to mach 3,500.

Just a reminder of Makarri's speed:

Honestly I doubt Quicksilver has the oomph to hurt Makkari. She took a blast from Ikaris' eyebeams straight to the chest and was back up again in seconds. That's waaaaaay more force than anything Fox Quicksilver has ever produced. All the Eternals seem to have enhanced durability to the extent that it should be considered standard. She also seems to have an edge in endurance, able to run from somewhere in Iraq to the middle of the Indian Ocean in... timed from my video... 14 seconds (from a very general google search, that's over 5,200 miles - how much is that in mach anyway?).

...

Edit 2: From the video, she goes from Iraq, to Italy (the aquaducts), to Rio de Jeneiro (Christ the Redeemer), to the middle of the Indian Ocean. That's 24,368.99 km (15,142.19 mi) in... 14 seconds. She should be going close to mach 5,000 or so.

[Sol_M]

Without touching anything else, did it mention anywhere in the X-men movies that Quicksilver hits things less hard if they also have superspeed? Otherwise that's kind of strange interpretation of comic book physics that I haven't seen applied to anyone with super speed ever.

Unless Quicksilver has been shown to not be able to hit things as hard when they're also moving really fast, his hitting power should be on the same level as his high end consistent feats against anything regardless of speed. Which would presumably be Apocalypse.

This has no bearing on whether or not he can match Makarri's speed or whether he can get through her durability with his best feats, just pointing out that it's an odd standard to apply to one specific character that we don't apply anywhere else.

[Nik Hasta]

I think the concept of the argument is that he has no other powers beyond superspeed so the sequences were he flips dudes over by flicking them with his finger and suchlike is a byproduct of his speed. Quicksilver himself is not intrinsically strong enough to do that if he were to move at regular speed.

Like, force = mass*acceleration, right?

Pietro can move bullets with his fingertips because he is moving much faster than them (such that they are crawling through the air toward him) so he doesn't have to move that fast (from his perspective) to exert the force required to deviate them from their path.

If Pietro's acceleration is lower relative to the object he's attempting to move, logically he would have a harder time. Since Makkari seems to be somewhere in his ballpark, I don't think it's wholley unreasonable to theorise that he's not going to be as effective on her as slower things.

[Sol_M]

I think that this is trying to use physics (and not even correct physics) to explain a fictional character's nonsensical feats. Pietro doesn't deal with any of the effects of the many physical forces or the lack of them thereof when moving at high speeds, because it's just a comic book.

Generally, we don't scrutinize character's feats like this, characters can do what they've been shown to do. Fiction of full of characters doing superhuman things without having explicitly stated superpowers that let them do those things. Batman explicitly doesn't have superpowers, but his feats are just straight up superhuman. Flashy Flash's explicitly ability is that he's fast but no one bats an eye when he displays superhuman strength and durability. So I just found this line of reasoning odd.

It'd be a different matter if something in the show specifically mentions that he has this weakness of course.

[Nik Hasta]

I'm just trying to interpret the proposed argument.

Also, there are examples in text of speedsters using speed to replicate the effects of strength without having super strength. For example, the infinite mass punch that Flash uses, as an extreme example, is him using speed to simulate great strength. Flash doesn't have enhanced strength but in a variety situations their raw speed allows them to do stuff that would be physically impossible for a regular human.

It's not like it's without precedent.

If you want to play it that way and go with the notion that Pietro has enhanced durability and strength, in addition to his speed, then we look at the feats in question.

In this instance, his strength is such that he can throw a teenager a couple of hundred metres and his durability is such that Apocalypse can break his leg with a single kick.

I don't think either are particularly relevant given Makkari's feats of durability and hitting power.

[Sol_M]

I'm just trying to interpret the proposed argument.

Also, there are examples in text of speedsters using speed to replicate the effects of strength without having super strength. For example, the infinite mass punch that Flash uses, as an extreme example, is him using speed to simulate great strength. Flash doesn't have enhanced strength but in a variety situations their raw speed allows them to do stuff that would be physically impossible for a regular human.

It's not like it's without precedent.

I do get what you're saying, but the question is, do we say that Flash suddenly can't IMP someone who is closer to his speed? Genuinely curious here, I've never heard that line of reasoning before.

Would it be fair to say that Kenshin has high cutting power because he swings his sword really fast via anime sword techniques? If he's fighting someone closer to his speed, does his hitting power suddenly decrease?

If you want to play it that way and go with the notion that Pietro has enhanced durability and strength, in addition to his speed, then we look at the feats in question.

Ah, that's not what I'm implying at all, it's more that the reasoning behind him not being able to exert the same force against superspeed opponents that he's been able to apply elsewhere seems to be "because physics", which it...isn't. Nothing about what Quicksilver does makes any sense in terms of physics, so why are we using physics to specifically add a caveat to his ability that doesn't exist?

Like I said, it just seemed odd to me so I called it out.

In this instance, his strength is such that he can throw a teenager a couple of hundred metres and his durability is such that Apocalypse can break his leg with a single kick.

I don't think either are particularly relevant given Makkari's feats of durability and hitting power.

Probably not, but that's a debate for those more familiar with the characters.

[Nik Hasta]

I do get what you're saying, but the question is, do we say that Flash suddenly can't IMP someone who is closer to his speed? Genuinely curious here, I've never heard that line of reasoning before.

Well, hard to say as precious few people are close to his speed level and when they are it depends whether a writer decides that Wally remembers the IMP as an option.

In Blitz when he was not only at his regular speed but dramatically amped up to Zoom II's level, while they were covering crazy amounts of distance as they fought, their actual punches seemed to be normal to one another.

Would it be fair to say that Kenshin has high cutting power because he swings his sword really fast via anime sword techniques? If he's fighting someone closer to his speed, does his hitting power suddenly decrease?

I think that's a lot harder to measure because Kenshin mostly fights people who have broadly conventional human durability so, even if his cutting power were to be theoretically less effective in a speed equalised match, he'd still be a guy with a sword that can cut through people under normal circumstances.

Ah, that's not what I'm implying at all, it's more that the reasoning behind him not being able to exert the same force against superspeed opponents that he's been able to apply elsewhere seems to be "because physics", which it...isn't. Nothing about what Quicksilver does makes any sense in terms of physics, so why are we using physics to specifically add a caveat to his ability that doesn't exist?

Like I said, it just seemed odd to me so I called it out.

I think it's an interesting question that I don't have a clear answer to.

To turn back to Blitz again for an example, in that story Zoom II can create big old explosions just by snapping his fingers or clapping his hands because of his sheer speed. When Wally gets up to his level, they are punching one another and he isn't able to use the finger snaps on him because, at equalised speed, they are just regular old snaps and Zoom and Wally would perceive those pressure waves as moving glacially slowly.

I think the tricky thing is that Pietro never interacts with anyone or anything as fast as himself that I can recall. I don't think it's unreasonable to theorise that his usual trick of, from his perspective, gently pushing things and then having them react like they've been suddenly accelerated to multimach speeds (because they have been) would be less effective on something already going that fast.

I don't really know, it's a tricky one.

[Twickster]

@Nik Hasta and @Sol_M,

Notwithstanding the interesting implications of the argument, this is just to remind that Makkari also has high-end momentum-induced hitting power in her own right (i.e. to the extent of hurting Ikaris and opening up fissures in solid rock, as well as *much* higher demonstrated durability. If, as its appearing to shape up, Makkari and Quicksilver have more or less parity in speed (and Makkari seems to be, if anything, faster than Quicksilver in measurable speed), then I would bet on the one with demonstrated enhanced durability along with everything else.

[big_adventure]

Gonna just flag that I don't think Quicksilver ever throws someone a kilometre.

Like a couple of hundred metres, maybe 500 or so but nowhere near an entire kilometre.

OK I'll settle for 500m if you like.

It's further away than he's bringing the students to that he's saving, and even that has to be in the realm of 500 meters. Watch when he runs out of the mansion with the last couple of students - the blast wave is following him a couple of hundred meters, and all of the students and other X peeps are well beyond that range.

And it's not like he grabs these kids and gets a running start then lets them go. The two kids kissing on the terrace that he throws into the lake, he just grabs them both at once and casually tosses them, with one arm each. No run up, no start, nothing. The other ones are tossed through windows, but there is no evidence of a runup or anything else. Yes, it's his speed that makes them go that fast, but he's still picking up kids with one hand and launching them hundreds of meters with casual flicks.

[big_adventure]

Also, just quoting myself here since an answer would settle the question quite definitively:



We *know* how fast Makarri is. How fast, exactly, is Quicksilver? And no, opinions that can be condensed to "QS' slow-mo is cool looking" does not satisfy the standards of debate.

He's faster than she is by a fair margin. In that scene, everything is in such slow time that a sci-fi powerplant explosion capable of destroying a gigantic mansion nearly instantly is almost not moving, and the people are absolute statues. He's wandering around casually, then will grab someone and take them 500m away, then run back, all in a fraction of a second in that crazy ass slow time.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the explosion wave is expanding at 500m/s, which is a lot, but it's not at all ridiculous given the nature of the source and the effect it has (totally annihilating the gigantic mansion and destroying everything for a decent radius around the mansion as well). Quicksilver grabs people, runs them 500m away through corridors and everything else, and makes it all the way back in the time that fragments of the explosion move less than a half-meter. He does this casually, never really looking like he's straining. So, he's covering 1000m or so in at most 1/1000th of a second.

He's therefore moving at least 1,000,000 meters per second just on those back and forth trips. And he does this all while screwing around. Extrapolating further, he searches every inch (it shows him looking in cabinets and closets and stuff) of the massive mansion (the complex has to be a, I dunno, 50 thousand square meters - given accomodations, classroms, labs, training stuff above and underground, etc.) when he's clearly never been there before. He makes, I dunno, 40 or 50 back and forth 1km runs with people, saves all of the others with throws into drapes or lakes, all in substantially less than a second. That alone puts him comfortably above Makkari. It's a silly feat, but it's absolutely consistent with the guy' presentation, and it's not like he's ever not been fast enough.

But wait! There's more! This explosion is an energy blast, and releases a significant amount of heat. Heat propagates as infrared primarily, and, hang on, how fast does that go again? Because at the beginning of the rescue, he runs into the mansion, searches enough to find the center of the blast, and is standing there, screwing around, moving pieces of it away (which are stuck in place relative to him, again, still just playing here) all while those terrible energies are there, moving at the speed of light, and he doesn't so much as singe a hair. The only way that happens is if he's a very high fraction of lightspeed.

He's fast enough that she won't see him coming, and won't be capable of doing anything to reduce the edge his speed gives him against her.

That's my take, anyway.