Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 23
  1. #1
    Astonishing Member gambitxremy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,126

    Default Through the lens of HOX/POX

    Hox/pox changed the context of so many x-men stories.
    What past x-men stories does Hox/pox make better or improve in your eyes? And why?

  2. #2
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,600

    Default

    Considering the whole story isn't over yet, we can't be sure if the retcons are actualy meant to be real or just part of an in universe distraction. So i would be carefull about trying to reinterpret the entire history of the X-men comics through these retcons.

    Personal opinion.

    Even if it's meant to be real, i don't think the current status quo will stand the test of time or have a longer lasting impact on the established pop culture image of the X-men franchise as established by it's core stories of the past. Nor can it erase the context in which the "classic" stories were established or re-established during said time period.

    All this retcon heavy reinvention of the X-men mythos is going nowhere but away from what makes this franchise what it's supposed to be, so while it's flashy/intriguing start could distract from the narrative problems amassed in the comic continuity over the past two decades, it doesn't really progress it with it's core identity intact anymore or actualy gets rid of these problems, just building on top of them. It feels to me like reading the X-men version of the Clone Saga in the making.

    Meanwhile the identity established by the old stories will remain as the core. It's where adaptions will go to primarily as inspiration, what people will associate with the characters and what will be suggested to be read when people might want to try out the comics.

    So what impact can a macro-story with uncertain longlivity and staying power have, that retroactively bends motivations and established core characterization of important X-men figures so heavily out of shape, that they are in part unrecognizable from what most pople remember or associate them as?

    Won't it just inspire the next bunch of writers, desperate to get the comics back into bigger popularity, to take their hammers and try to bend them into the right shape again? Making any attempt to reconsider the entire established X-men history in the face of the current retcon futile?

    Though i also admit that since it's not over yet, i can't fully judge it's longterm success or failure with absolute certainty. It's just the impression i have.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gambitxremy View Post
    Hox/pox changed the context of so many x-men stories.
    What past x-men stories does Hox/pox make better or improve in your eyes? And why?
    The first thing that comes to mind is the revealed history of Apocalypse and his family. I found everything about it very interesting and entertaining to read, especially the original horsemen.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member gambitxremy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    The first thing that comes to mind is the revealed history of Apocalypse and his family. I found everything about it very interesting and entertaining to read, especially the original horsemen.
    I love that apocalypse made rictor his heir

  5. #5
    Mighty Member Viteh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,125

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    All this retcon heavy reinvention of the X-men mythos is going nowhere but away from what makes this franchise what it's supposed to be, so while it's flashy/intriguing start could distract from the narrative problems amassed in the comic continuity over the past two decades, it doesn't really progress it with it's core identity intact anymore or actualy gets rid of these problems, just building on top of them. It feels to me like reading the X-men version of the Clone Saga in the making.

    Meanwhile the identity established by the old stories will remain as the core. It's where adaptions will go to primarily as inspiration, what people will associate with the characters and what will be suggested to be read when people might want to try out the comics.
    I think the Moira part won't make it to any adaptations, but I do feel Krakoa, or rather, the idea of mutants forming their own nation as a response to human violence can and will be adapted into a movie. Although I do think they like the Krakoan aesthetic, so it will probably be Krakoa, as opposed to Genosha or Utopia.

    If they do end up rebooting the X-men in the MCU, if they go for some long term storytelling, a mutant-nation island seems like the inevitable progression of whatever stories they tell first.

  6. #6
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    I think the Moira part won't make it to any adaptations, but I do feel Krakoa, or rather, the idea of mutants forming their own nation as a response to human violence can and will be adapted into a movie. Although I do think they like the Krakoan aesthetic, so it will probably be Krakoa, as opposed to Genosha or Utopia.

    If they do end up rebooting the X-men in the MCU, if they go for some long term storytelling, a mutant-nation island seems like the inevitable progression of whatever stories they tell first.
    They actualy had Genosha as that in Wolverine and the X-men. It even got the implication of a better leadership at the end of the season when Magneto was exiled for staging a Sentinel attack (which would have gotten out of his control) and Scarlet Witch and Polaris took over.

    In general, i have grown to feel that the destruction of Genosha by Grant Morrison, both in execution and overall impact on the X-men comics, had been the worst possible developed before House of M, in how much story potential it has destroyed with it, for little to no positive gain for the franchise in general. A one-two puch of terrible developments still hurting the comics today.

    Hence why i hope that any adaption using Genosha as central set piece, does the opposite of what Morrison did and actualy make both the post magistrates mutant run Genosha a grand achievement and it's preservation by the intervention and watchfull eyes of the heros a big deal.

    Because not only was the story of Genosha intriguing and it's development from slavery nation to potential save heaven for mutants something that happend on pannel, when it became a mutant run nation it still had all the scars and issues that made it far from perfect, but with a possibly bright future ahead of it.

    Which i consider much more beliavable and better told than Krakoa which as nation comes out of nowhere and gets overly remarked as "perfect" or superior to anything else without proper on pannel development beforehand.

    Also i think the "Nation" of Krakoa could appear, but i would guess more like as a limited storyline rather than THE status quo and as "rotten behind the pretty curtains" situation, since all the "super advanced, super clean, better than anything man made" nature of their technological base and the "everyones happy singing kumbaya" just feels more appropiate for that kind of reveal than being supposed to be regular mutant run nation.

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    6,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Viteh View Post
    I think the Moira part won't make it to any adaptations, but I do feel Krakoa, or rather, the idea of mutants forming their own nation as a response to human violence can and will be adapted into a movie. Although I do think they like the Krakoan aesthetic, so it will probably be Krakoa, as opposed to Genosha or Utopia.
    I think Utopia/Genosha is much easier to pull of than Krakoa.Even if they so Krakoa I severely doubt they'd keep most of the things on the island.

  8. #8
    Embrace the fluff FluffyCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,821

    Default

    The Moira retcon became by extension the worst Xavier retcon ever imo. It changes everythig. It pretty much means they let everyone else's hardships/tragedies play out just so Xavier could play undisputed savior at a critical moment.

    Not disputing the results so far or even truly condemning the intent. Still. Seriously messed up.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gambitxremy View Post
    Hox/pox changed the context of so many x-men stories.
    What past x-men stories does Hox/pox make better or improve in your eyes? And why?
    I think for me the biggest one is the character repair of Mystique and Destiny. No more subtext about them. They were in a committed relationship for years. They were married.

    Regardless of whatever bisexual moments they had over the years with other partners. Mystique and Destiny have been in love with each other and married for a very long time.

    It's not even a retcon, it's just fixing a problem caused by the Comic Code Authority and their anti-LGBT stance of the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, etc... The worst thing that ever happened to comics is the Evangelical Christian controlled Comic Code Authority!

    If the CCA hadn't existed, Kitty Pryde and Rachel Summers would have been a couple, Mystique and Destiny would have been a couple, Illyana would have been pansexual from the beginning. I wouldn't even be surprised if characters like Iceman and Human Torch would have been out as bisexual or gay years ago.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    6,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post

    If the CCA hadn't existed, Kitty Pryde and Rachel Summers would have been a couple, Mystique and Destiny would have been a couple, Illyana would have been pansexual from the beginning. I wouldn't even be surprised if characters like Iceman and Human Torch would have been out as bisexual or gay years ago.
    Kitty leaving Rachel on the altar would be quite the spectacle because I don't expect her to keep cool if that happened to her.

    But yeah, CCA is def. one of the things I'm glad we moved on from in comics.Now lets get rid of milking popular characters dry by creating a hundred legacy characters when it makes no sense(looking at you Spidey)[because none of their OC's stick] and bringing people back from the dead next.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    2,687

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    I think Utopia/Genosha is much easier to pull of than Krakoa.Even if they so Krakoa I severely doubt they'd keep most of the things on the island.
    If the MCU is going to go with the idea that there’s been a secret mutant nation in hiding this whole time I think they’re likely to go with them most visually distinctive one (Krakoa) to try to differentiate as much as possible from the other MCU secret nations.

    Plus the idea that mutants live on a island that literally a living mutant is pretty cool.

  12. #12
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    65

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FluffyCyclopsRLZ View Post
    The Moira retcon became by extension the worst Xavier retcon ever imo. It changes everythig. It pretty much means they let everyone else's hardships/tragedies play out just so Xavier could play undisputed savior at a critical moment.

    Not disputing the results so far or even truly condemning the intent. Still. Seriously messed up.
    I tend to disagree for the most part while that might be the case at time but there is a numbers of big events in X-Men history that likely didn't happen in Moira's past lives or happened differently for example it was implied that Legion was engineered in life 10 for the first time so Legion creating AOA thus the effects of Dark Beast and Sugar Man have on 616 history are likely new to Moira and the way Moira wrote about her breaking Xavier suggests Onslaught might be new too and there are other things like time travelers that could cause a lot of changes so thing happen differently than they might have expected.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    2,560

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    If the MCU is going to go with the idea that there’s been a secret mutant nation in hiding this whole time I think they’re likely to go with them most visually distinctive one (Krakoa) to try to differentiate as much as possible from the other MCU secret nations.

    Plus the idea that mutants live on a island that literally a living mutant is pretty cool.
    Krakoa isn't really visually that different from Wakanda imo though I'm more inclined to believe despite a mixture of naturalism and highly advanced technological prowess ,that Krakoa is discovered later than Wakanda(in film) simply because mutants have much more versatile capability to stay hidden if they so choose.

  14. #14
    BANNED
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    8,289

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    The first thing that comes to mind is the revealed history of Apocalypse and his family. I found everything about it very interesting and entertaining to read, especially the original horsemen.
    This! Exactatiously!!!

  15. #15
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,600

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    If the MCU is going to go with the idea that there’s been a secret mutant nation in hiding this whole time I think they’re likely to go with them most visually distinctive one (Krakoa) to try to differentiate as much as possible from the other MCU secret nations.

    Plus the idea that mutants live on a island that literally a living mutant is pretty cool.
    As secret mutant nation, it really is the fitting aesthetic in order to highlight how "alien" they are to the rest of humanity and the otherwise cosmo-political "normal" mutants who are born and live among the rest of humanity as part of the "downtrodden minority" metaphor.

    One could even argue that the lack of proper aesthetic was also what harmed The Neo when they were introduced, since they just used the bog standard 90's "advanced tech" look for their technology and equipment, while otherwise looking like pseudo tribalistic "bikers", giving them no visual distinction from other radical mutant groups before them, or living up to the claim of being more advanced and powerfull than normal mutants.

    Of course there were more problems with them than just that.

    However as mentioned before, the aesthetic and the whole nature as secret mutant nation also invites much more stories of sinister plans and going ons behind the facade of a high tech paradise, while it also contrast the roots of the marvel mutants and their often used metaphor. Which is the awareness of the "others among us" that has become so present in the modern, often urban, social and cultural environment that the readership has been used to since the oldest stories.

    A secret island paradise of super advanced people is just too ingrained as "too good to be true" in every viewers minds, while mutants belong to the rest of humanity by their metaphor. So chances are, Krakoa would be revealed as villain faction (combinging aspects of the Arraki) or cautionary tale sooner or later.

    Funny enough, the idea of mutants combining their powers to create a self reliant environment in an indepedent (possibly anarchic) community is what i think would be neat as new interpretation of the Morlocks, as it combines the strengths of the mutants' roots (mutants among us) and the usage of powers for civilian purpose we see currently.

    Also yes, a mutant island as living "city ship" is a pretty good idea regardless. Though now i have to remember Danny the Street/Bus from Doom Patrol...
    Last edited by Grunty; 11-28-2021 at 06:49 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •