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  1. #1
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    Default The Gangrel Antedeluvian vs Hulk

    The Gangrel Antedeluvian vs Hulk

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    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    IIRC high level protean can shut down transformations even for garou and stuff, so that might be an instant win
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    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Planetary level Animalism shuts off the Hulk’s anger.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

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    Spectacular Member Muadib's Avatar
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    Does anything change if we sub Immortal Hulk for regular Hulk? IIRC he has some connection to The One Below All and some powerful feats.

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    Friendship's Shockwave BitVyper's Avatar
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    What he really needs is some feats against things that shut his powers right off. Not saying he doesn't have them, just that trying to bring rage powers and transformations against someone with all the gangrel disciplines maxed out is sort of like Wolverine running at Magneto.
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    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BitVyper View Post
    What he really needs is some feats against things that shut his powers right off. Not saying he doesn't have them, just that trying to bring rage powers and transformations against someone with all the gangrel disciplines maxed out is sort of like Wolverine running at Magneto.
    Like how once Wolverine gets all his metal ripped off he can totally take the fight to Magneto, once Hulk gets all the Gamma power ripped out of him, maybe Bruce Banner can beat the super vamp with Marvel super-science!
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    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Enoia is kind of a nature magic goddess maybe merged with Gaia maybe not depending on your storyteller. Shutting down the garou transformation falls within her purview a lot more than Hulk, whose a gamma spawned science/hell/divinely cursed immortal Job of the Marvel Universe.

    Likewise Hulk anger isn't powered by primal animalistic rage like a garou, again Enoia's bread and butter, but by severe child abuse, and suppressed trauma.

    Not to mention that Hulk/Banner doesn't necessarily need to be angry to stay big and green.

    Basically a Garou does not equal Hulk.

    Edit:. Hulk's really more in line with Malkav than Enoia.

    Edit to Edit: Like Malkav/Tzimizce. There's just no real connection to animals/nature/the natural world with Hulk like there is with the Garou or the Changing Breeds, that Protean or Animalism deal with, even at the high level.
    Last edited by Ptrvc; 12-03-2021 at 10:49 AM.

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    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    Enoia is kind of a nature magic goddess maybe merged with Gaia maybe not depending on your storyteller. Shutting down the garou transformation falls within her purview a lot more than Hulk, whose a gamma spawned science/hell/divinely cursed immortal Job of the Marvel Universe.

    Likewise Hulk anger isn't powered by primal animalistic rage like a garou, again Enoia's bread and butter, but by severe child abuse, and suppressed trauma.

    Not to mention that Hulk/Banner doesn't necessarily need to be angry to stay big and green.

    Basically a Garou does not equal Hulk.

    Edit:. Hulk's really more in line with Malkav than Enoia.

    Edit to Edit: Like Malkav/Tzimizce. There's just no real connection to animals/nature/the natural world with Hulk like there is with the Garou or the Changing Breeds, that Protean or Animalism deal with, even at the high level.
    Now, we're going to be talking in pre vampire 5th terms here, but since Vampire 5th has offered no real definition or take on the antediluvians and their powers (aside from largely the below note), we're left with the last instance that did.

    That said: This isn't accurate. Animalism encompasses a broad enough spectrum of rage as to also be capable of shutting down/emotionally manipulating the Beast in a vampire, which is a curse from God, not a natural force come from the earth (it is in fact a specifically unnatural force). Beyond that, advanced protean screwing around can mess with, again, outright unnatural shapeshifting, being capable of shutting down things like the Tzimisce Zulo or even Dracul form, which are the results of straight up unnatural fleshwarping (and if you really want to dip into nonsense, indeed the results of a sentient interdimensional alien virus, but let's not go there, it is a silly place). Gangrel has the jacked up level 10 version of such things.

    Enoia is kind of a nature magic goddess maybe merged with Gaia maybe not depending on your storyteller.
    Even- sigh- Vampire 5th has decided that Gangrel is merged with the Earth to the point that she can just casually om nom nom whatever member of her clan earth melds with it whenever she just randomly feels like that (this is how Xaviar died, I guess. Sigh) and that when otherwise not doing so, some members of her clan, when standing on natural ground, can draw on the connection of having ever melded with her to on a much smaller scale drain their entire clan collectively of some blood to moderately replenish their own (which feels insane to ever do that. If she can eat you whenever you earth meld, if she is one with the Earth, why would you do anything at all that might make her notice you? Why is that ability something anyone would spend points on? Why at that in game would any Gangrel ever use Earth Meld ever again if this situation is something the clan knows about, which apparently they do? Why would anyone ever use Earth Meld ever again other than the Gangrel deciding to not let people know "hey, by the way, whenever you earth meld, Gangrel herself can eat you for fun like nothing. That's what you get for learning our clan discipline!" How does this not turn a vampire power you have to spend xp on to be able to do into a "can die any time you ever use it" power? But whatever, Vampire 5th and making sense do not go together). Take that however you prefer as far as The Gangrel Antediluvian Has Merged With The Planet.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 12-03-2021 at 01:06 PM.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Now, we're going to be talking in pre vampire 5th terms here, but since Vampire 5th has offered no real definition or take on the antediluvians and their powers (aside from largely the below note), we're left with the last instance that did.

    That said: This isn't accurate. Animalism encompasses a broad enough spectrum of rage as to also be capable of shutting down/emotionally manipulating the Beast in a vampire, which is a curse from God, not a natural force come from the earth (it is in fact a specifically unnatural force). Beyond that, advanced protean screwing around can mess with, again, outright unnatural shapeshifting, being capable of shutting down things like the Tzimisce Zulo or even Dracul form, which are the results of straight up unnatural fleshwarping (and if you really want to dip into nonsense, indeed the results of a sentient interdimensional alien virus, but let's not go there, it is a silly place). Gangrel has the jacked up level 10 version of such things.



    Even- sigh- Vampire 5th has decided that Gangrel is merged with the Earth to the point that she can just casually om nom nom whatever member of her clan earth melds with it whenever she just randomly feels like that (this is how Xaviar died, I guess. Sigh) and that when otherwise not doing so, some members of her clan, when standing on natural ground, can draw on the connection of having ever melded with her to on a much smaller scale drain their entire clan of some blood (which feels insane to ever do that. If she can eat you whenever you earth meld, if she is one with the Earth, why would you do anything at all that might make her notice you? Why is that ability something anyone would spend points on? Why at that in game would any Gangrel ever use Earth Meld ever again if this situation is something the clan knows about, which apparently they do? Why would anyone ever use Earth Meld ever again other than the Gangrel deciding to not let people know "hey, by the way, whenever you earth meld, Gangrel can eat you for fun like nothing. That's what you get for learning our clan discipline!" How does this not turn a vampire power you have to spend xp on to be able to do into a "can die any time you ever use it" power? But whatever, Vampire 5th and making sense do not go together). Take that however you prefer as far as The Gangrel Antediluvian Has Merged With The Planet.
    I'd make the argument that the beast that cainites have is still a natural beast in the sense that it's things like fight or flight a territorial nature, urge to establish dominance, run away from fire that's part of the natural nature of man. God's curse was to bring it to the forefront after Caine let it take control when he killed Able. That's close enough to an animal or beast for Animalism to control.

    You can't really make the argument that the Hulk personalities are really Banner's beast. Devil is all about in self-preservation but in a very clinical manipulative way, Fixit likes creature comforts but that's about it, Savage is angry but ultimately the kindest and most merciful of the personalities (including Banner who's kind of a dick.)

    Indeed the Banner form is no more true than any of the Hulk's and hasn't been since his first death after the gamma bomb, when he turned into the Hulk for the first time. Unlike the Tzatziki Sauce forms which are still all about their beasts (and why does everyone have to to badmouth the Order of the Dragon anyway?)

    I don't know I tend to see a lot of the stuff Enoia does with forms and beasts as pretty solid to the curse of Caine (but with immortality and superpowers) as opposed to Hulk's being TOBA/TOAA's Job (but with immortality and superpowers).

    I don't know much about V5 to be honest. Outside of it being regarded as streamlined but kinda lame. Like 5E.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    I'd make the argument that the beast that cainites have is still a natural beast in the sense that it's things like fight or flight a territorial nature, urge to establish dominance, run away from fire that's part of the natural nature of man. God's curse was to bring it to the forefront after Caine let it take control when he killed Able. That's close enough to an animal or beast for Animalism to control.
    You can argue that, but you'd be off. The vampire's Beast, compared to someone else's, is a distorted enough thing from such that lies within all living things such that its ultimate goal is to spiritually erode the Vampire down until it is a wight, whereas with other things that live it is, y'know, not that. It comparatively has an overarching purpose. It wants to destroy the vampire that bears it, in a spiritual sense. All that stuff is largely in service to that goal. It is enough of a comparatively palpable force that at times there are powers that exist that can grant it its own voice to speak with. It goes well beyond animalistic impulses to become a malevolent thing with an intent. There are powers that come off like consciously trading with it for power in exchange for giving over to its influence for a bit. It has its own urges and cunning and it wants the vampire to debase itself in ways that have nothing to do with concepts from the natural world.

    Unlike the Tzatziki Sauce forms which are still all about their beasts
    Vicissitude has little to nothing to do with the beast. At some of its most extreme forms, it has done things like let a Methuselah turn themselves into Ebola. At the deepest non ludicrous concept of it, it's essentially the infection of the Tzimisce Antediluvian within its clan as a fleshwarping rot that they call upon (as opposed to, again, an alien thing from another dimension).

    You can't really make the argument that the Hulk personalities are really Banner's beast. Devil is all about in self-preservation but in a very clinical manipulative way, Fixit likes creature comforts but that's about it, Savage is angry but ultimately the kindest and most merciful of the personalities (including Banner who's kind of a dick.)
    And yet, they all function on the "rage=strength, more rage=more strength" axis of things, making their strength a function of rage just fine. You seem to be reaching deep into semantics at this point.

    Indeed the Banner form is no more true than any of the Hulk's and hasn't been since his first death after the gamma bomb, when he turned into the Hulk for the first time.
    Banner is the psyche from which the other ones emerged and when that dude is still in the Hulk, and the Hulk gets depowered, that's who results from that, so again, this is getting deep into that your argument is basically semantics. In fact at the very close of the Immortal Hulk when that whole sequence got resolved, he was, again, Banner. Protean messes with shapeshifting, be it Serpentis, Vicissitude, or, going by the last time crossover rules were established in any sense, even mage shapeshifting. It can even mess with Obtenebration shapeshifting, which somehow during the furor everyone has about that time the game tried to make Vicissitude into an alien power from another dimension, is an actual no fooling alien power from another dimension, the Abyss (that almost everyone is comparatively fine with this in the fanbase is one of the dorkballs things about the vampire fanbase).

    To underscore the point about Banner by the way, the idea that Banner isn't the default true form at the end of Immortal Hulk, here's what happened when they got Banner's soul back in hell and they returned to the world despite at that point the three of them still being in outright separate bodies/spiritual incarnations:

    https://imgur.com/a/hyapDgL

    https://imgur.com/a/D96Kdq9

    But even all that aside? To put it gently, the new Hulk run seems to be.. uhm.. ignoring and or possibly retconning the living crap out of a lot of things in Immortal Hulk for it to even be possible, given where last the state of affairs left off. But I guess we'll see as that goes. (Like if the Hulk was somehow actually created to protect the world from Banner, then Banner is indeed the true form anyway, and the Hulk is an after the fact add on to him to protect the world from him. But we'll see how that pans out, I guess. It reads very "I want to throw out everything that happened before I became the writer".)

    I don't know I tend to see a lot of the stuff Enoia does with forms and beasts as pretty solid to the curse of Caine (but with immortality and superpowers) as opposed to Hulk's being TOBA/TOAA's Job (but with immortality and superpowers).
    Protean can deshapeshift things using powers Caine did not make that draw on alien dimensions of evil that had nothing to do with vampirism initially as opposed to being a thing a really powerful vampire sought out to mess with.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 12-03-2021 at 03:07 PM.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Unrelated to anything, the only thing I've particularly liked about the Abyss and the origins/meaning of Obtenebration, is that it allows for making the joke that Lasombra made the classic evil overlord mistake of trying to consume an energy field larger than his head.

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    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Unrelated to anything, the only thing I've particularly liked about the Abyss and the origins/meaning of Obtenebration, is that it allows for making the joke that Lasombra made the classic evil overlord mistake of trying to consume an energy field larger than his head.
    Somehow missed this before, but it's certainly worth amused recognition. ^_^ Haven't heard the Evil Overlord's list mentioned in a loooong time.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Somehow missed this before, but it's certainly worth amused recognition. ^_^ Haven't heard the Evil Overlord's list mentioned in a loooong time.
    So there are basically three implications for what ultimately happens to Lasombra.

    1) He indeed successfully transcended his own body and is now one with the Abyss (I grant that this is implied as being the one that happened, but meh)

    2) He tried to consume an energy field larger than his own head. Kaboom! (This would be hilarious)

    3) The Abyss hollowed him out and uses him as a vampire god puppet when it feels like it. (This is not as fun as #2)

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    There's also the version where Lasombra becomes one with the abyss, but the creatures already there, creatures who existed since before light, consider him a childish nuisance because he's incredibly young and basically treat him like a school of jocks treat a nerd.

  15. #15
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    So there are basically three implications for what ultimately happens to Lasombra.

    1) He indeed successfully transcended his own body and is now one with the Abyss (I grant that this is implied as being the one that happened, but meh)

    2) He tried to consume an energy field larger than his own head. Kaboom! (This would be hilarious)

    3) The Abyss hollowed him out and uses him as a vampire god puppet when it feels like it. (This is not as fun as #2)
    While #1 is kind of the one that seems to be the canon choice (including in the horrid novelization of Gehenna), I'll warrant that #2 is the most fun as well as being classic Antediluvian overreaching.

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    There's also the version where Lasombra becomes one with the abyss, but the creatures already there, creatures who existed since before light, consider him a childish nuisance because he's incredibly young and basically treat him like a school of jocks treat a nerd.
    ...I've changed my mind, this one is best.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers." - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman." - Pendaran

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