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  1. #1
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    Default Mandalorian Alignment Chart Challenge

    Since I’m a teacher who wants to decorate my room, I'm thinking about having some fun and making a D&D style Alignment Chart using Star Wars… and since the Mandos can more fluidly switch between the different alignments without changing designation like a Jedi or Sith would, I thought thye’d be good for them.

    What I’ve got so far is:

    Lawful good - Fenn Rau (This was the hardest category to pick for without going for Satine)

    Neutral Good - Din Djarin

    Chaotic Good - Sabine Wren

    Lawful neutral - The Armorer (I figure a fundamentalist fits the category)

    True neutral - Jango Fett

    Chaotic Neutral - Boba Fett

    Lawful Evil - Almec (I was trying to figure out high profile examples, but Gar Saxon fits the next one better)

    Neutral Evil - Gar Saxon

    Chaotic Evil - Pre Viszla

    How would you do it?
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  2. #2
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Eh, while Almec, Gar Saxon and Pre Vizsla were clearly antagonists to the heroes on Clone Wars I don't know if any of them fit the mold of evil(whether lawful, neutral or chaotic) in the traditional sense. It's like trying to put Republicans and Democrats on the D&D spectrum, slightly amusing but not a true fit.
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  3. #3
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    I can't see Jango in the middle spot and Boba might be moving his alignment due to the new show. The Fetts teamed with the super duper bad guys of the SW universe which is why I can't see them in the middle. From a Mando's perspective, wouldn't Death Watch be "the middle" ... so maybe Bo-Katan?

    Mandos are a bit like placing political figures on a scale ... it is all about your perspective.

    You may want to just use characters from the show, like below:

    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 12-01-2021 at 10:51 AM.
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  4. #4
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I can't see Jango in the middle spot and Boba might be moving his alignment due to the new show. The Fetts teamed with the super duper bad guys of the SW universe which is why I can't see them in the middle. From a Mando's perspective, wouldn't Death Watch be "the middle" ... so maybe Bo-Katan?

    Mandos are a bit like placing political figures on a scale ... it is all about your perspective.

    You may want to just use characters from the show, like below:

    Eh, I don't think the Fetts really teamed up with any seriously evil guys as far as they knew. Sure, we know the Sepratists were run by Sith but to your average citizen of the Galaxy were they really any worse than the Republic? So Jango is definitely pretty neutral.

    Boba's a little bit more of a gray area as he does work for Jabba...but again, sure we assign a negative to Jabba and call him a crime lord but in the scheme of things it seems like he was the legitimate ruler of Tatoine so in that case does agreeing to work for him mean you're evil?
    For all the "There is the dark side and there is the light side" simple duality there is to the mythos of Star Wars the wider galaxy is a much les simplistic place.
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  5. #5
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Eh, I don't think the Fetts really teamed up with any seriously evil guys as far as they knew. Sure, we know the Sepratists were run by Sith but to your average citizen of the Galaxy were they really any worse than the Republic? So Jango is definitely pretty neutral.

    Boba's a little bit more of a gray area as he does work for Jabba...but again, sure we assign a negative to Jabba and call him a crime lord but in the scheme of things it seems like he was the legitimate ruler of Tatoine so in that case does agreeing to work for him mean you're evil?
    For all the "There is the dark side and there is the light side" simple duality there is to the mythos of Star Wars the wider galaxy is a much les simplistic place.
    I don't think the Separatists or Jabba have been portrayed as neutral forces ... the former may have become that later in the series. Aren't the Hutts vastly known as crime lords? That puts you on the evil side of organized crime ... and both attacked Jedi, Rebels, and other good guys throughout the series. Boba's been in countless "villain only" books .. he worked for Darth Vader. I mean ... I just can't see either Fett as neutral; they both picked a side. Din is far more true neutral in that case.

    Wouldn't Death Watch be more in the middle in terms of Mandos, though?

    I just am not sure Mando's are the easiest to place like this since a lot of their motives shift and depends on the canon or perspective you take.
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 12-01-2021 at 04:52 PM.
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  6. #6
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I don't think the Separatists or Jabba have been portrayed as neutral forces ... the former may have become that later in the series. Aren't the Hutts vastly known as crime lords? That puts you on the evil side of organized crime ... and both attacked Jedi, Rebels, and other good guys throughout the series. Boba's been in countless "villain only" books .. he worked for Darth Vader. I mean ... I just can't see either Fett as neutral; they both picked a side. Din is far more true neutral in that case.

    Wouldn't Death Watch be more in the middle in terms of Mandos, though?

    I just am not sure Mando's are the easiest to place like this since a lot of their motives shift and the depends on the canon or perspective you take.
    What I'm saying is we see the Sepratists and Hutts as bad guys because they are in opposition to the heroes but in terms of actual good and evil were the Seperatists really a worse regime than the Republic policy wise? We think so as viewers because we know the whole civil war was orchestrated by the Sith but to your average citizen there were a myriad of valid reasons why the Sepratists were worth allying with. And its the same with the Hutts, we're told by Qui Gon and Obi Wan that the Hutts are a bunch of gangsters who control the sector but by the same token they are the legitimate governing body there and the average people there don't seem to mind so does working for them really make you evil? It just depends where your certain point of view lands.
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    Admittedly, I’m kind of playing at an audience perspective with stronger, more traditional morality, where Death Watch under Pre is strictly villainous, regardless of any ethnocentrism they might enjoy in-universe; the Children Of The Watch feel more like the “purer” middle for the Mandos, since Death Watch under Pre wasn’t even strong enough to succeed in overthrowing the New Mandalorians until a Sith not only merged his nationalist group with numerous outside groups, but masterminded the deception that Pre needed to take over… and then immediately killed him for it.

    Pre only really followed the rules he fought for and enforced at the last; otherwise, he was mostly a rampaging murderer with no true victories, even against Satine. So even if we try to give them a “Blue and Orange Morality” where Death Watch’s ethos is treated as acceptable as a neutral one, Pre’s a failure there as well.

    Jango feels more like the True Neutral for me because he wound up being trusted to work for both sides fo the Sith proxie war at the same time; hard to get much more True Neutral than that. Boba and he worked for Sith, so the evil’s there, but now Boba’s going for the criminal underworld while following his own code.

    Personally, I *did* actually want their to be a recurring thing where Mandalorians who get along with Jedi and civilians get the “Good” rating; I don’t want the moral equivalence that the Neutral section would proclaim.
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    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    What I'm saying is we see the Sepratists and Hutts as bad guys because they are in opposition to the heroes but in terms of actual good and evil were the Seperatists really a worse regime than the Republic policy wise? We think so as viewers because we know the whole civil war was orchestrated by the Sith but to your average citizen there were a myriad of valid reasons why the Sepratists were worth allying with. And its the same with the Hutts, we're told by Qui Gon and Obi Wan that the Hutts are a bunch of gangsters who control the sector but by the same token they are the legitimate governing body there and the average people there don't seem to mind so does working for them really make you evil? It just depends where your certain point of view lands.
    I understood what you said. SW doesn't really have a ton of gray area like other franchises; they're more black & white about things. Which is why I said Mandos are hard to place because their motives shift and depends on the canon or perspective you take.

    Again, wouldn't Death Watch be more of a middle ground for their culture?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    I understood what you said. SW doesn't really have a ton of gray area like other franchises; they're more black & white about things. Which is why I said Mandos are hard to place because their motives shift and depends on the canon or perspective you take.

    Again, wouldn't Death Watch be more of a middle ground for their culture?
    I don’t think so… but I’m considering the New Mandalorians and other Mandalorian civilians like Sabine’s father to still be very much a part of the paradigm (and even perhaps the real center during TCW), as well as the Protectors, with the latter being firmly planted on a heroic side opposite Pre’s Death Watch.

    Pre’s Death Watch was explicitly an extremist terrorist group that was too small and wielded too little influence to overthrow a pacifist even when attacking purely civilian targets; even in a warrior culture, that’s a sign of being outside the norm among the warriors. Maul had to launch a false flag campaign to get Pre pulled more towards the “middle.” Before, y’know, Maul killed him and launched Mandalore into a civil war that seemed to see the civilian populace largely hide underground and keep their heads down.

    Bo’s faction might be closer to neutral, but the meta-narrative has started to acknowledge even she’s more a case of “too flawed” anti-hero as opposed to a true ambiguous character.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 12-01-2021 at 06:36 PM.
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    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I don’t think so… but I’m considering the New Mandalorians and other Mandalorian civilians like Sabine’s father to still be very much a part of the paradigm (and even perhaps the real center during TCW), as well as the Protectors, with the latter being firmly planted on a heroic side opposite Pre’s Death Watch.

    Pre’s Death Watch was explicitly an extremist terrorist group that was too small and wielded too little influence to overthrow a pacifist even when attacking purely civilian targets; even in a warrior culture, that’s a sign of being outside the norm among the warriors. Maul had to launch a false flag campaign to get Pre pulled more towards the “middle.” Before, y’know, Maul killed him and launched Mandalore into a civil war that seemed to see the civilian populace largely hide underground and keep their heads down.

    Bo’s faction might be closer to neutral, but the meta-narrative has started to acknowledge even she’s more a case of “too flawed” anti-hero as opposed to a true ambiguous character.
    That's why I suggested Bo. I'm just trying to figure out the middle for Mandalorians. Then my brain can wrap around the rest. I cannot see the Fetts as neutral because they truly picked sides whereas Bo and parts of Death Watch seem more in the middle of all Mandos. But like you're saying maybe the Children are better. Which, IMHO, Din makes a better true neutral in regards to others of his culture. In regards to other SW characters, he is definitely lawful neutral.

    Does that makes sense?
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 12-01-2021 at 08:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    That's why I suggested Bo. I'm just trying to figure out the middle for Mandalorians. Then my brain can wrap around the rest. I cannot see the Fetts as neutral because they truly picked sides whereas Bo and parts of Death Watch seem more in the middle of all Mandos. But like you're saying maybe the Children are better. Which, IMHO, Din makes a better true neutral in regards to others of his culture. In regards to other SW characters, he is definitely lawful neutral.

    Does that makes sense?
    I think it makes sense for the Mando perspective… but part of the thing for me is that I want to apply a non-Mando perspective as well, which would mean that Din, like Sabine and Fenn (to some extent), would receive a bonus for being truly heroic because they get along with the Jedi, the Rebels/Republic, and civilians - and without money. Din is neutral for his culture, but good in the larger picture… and I kind of want that larger picture to define *my* particular chart when it wouldn’t define one for the Mandos themselves.

    At the same time, while the Fett’s ally with the Sith, it’s always about cold hard cash for them - and pure mercenary motives are hard to make slip out of the neutral category when not only does Star Wars having willfully malevolent forces like the Sith, but the Mandos themselves have guys who are arguably worse as well - Gar Saxon is willing to enslave and murder others to remain on top, and Pre was a bloodthirsty warmonger without a cause.

    Seriously, Pre wound up teaming with not one but two Sith Lords himself , was judged as a reckless liability by both, and his time without one saw him just mindlessly laying waste to a village for talking back. He’s got to be the Chaotic Evil one; even his defeat and “honor” in death is suspect since we’ve seen him bend the rules hypocritically when defeated by others.

    Though… what if Bo, since she and her faction tend to waver on rules and loyalties based off of Mandalorian nationalism that’s more pragmatic and practical than Pre’s largely mindless violence, is the one classified as Chaotic Neutral? And Jango, since he was a ruthlessly professional and amoral mercenary trusted to do both sides of the proxy war the Sith wanted, then becomes the Lawful Evil in place of Almec?

    Almec would be just as off this idea of mine as Satine is if it weren’t for his armor making a last minute appearance.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 12-01-2021 at 09:50 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Eh, while Almec, Gar Saxon and Pre Vizsla were clearly antagonists to the heroes on Clone Wars I don't know if any of them fit the mold of evil(whether lawful, neutral or chaotic) in the traditional sense. It's like trying to put Republicans and Democrats on the D&D spectrum, slightly amusing but not a true fit.
    Pre Vizsla was willing to enslave or annihilate the aliens on the planet Death Watch fled to after being exiled from Mandalore (I forget the episode, it's the Lux Bonteri and Ahoska one). And Gar Saxon was perfectly willing to annihilate the Protectors, despite their loyalty to Mandalore (at that point, only Fenn Rau had betrayed the Empire, and only under duress). I think they both pretty easily qualify as evil.

    Almec is more ambiguous. He was willing to enrich and aggrandize himself, but selfishness is nowhere near the level of the violence the other two displayed. Still though, I don't think it's a huge leap to put him in the evil camp, just on account of how utterly corrupt he was.

    And I agree with whomever upthread put the Fetts in the neutral category. Very much so. Chaotic neutral maybe, but they are mercenaries. They go where the money lives without regard for politics or ideology. They are antagonists in the films, but are never played as truly evil. Even Jango is just doing a job during AotC. Makes you wonder why the Jedi didn't just make him a better offer, instead of old Mace going for the full lightsaber lobotomy. We'll see what Book of Boba has to add to the conversation, but everything in the trailers continues to play him as a neutral force. Keyword being force, from the looks of things.

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    What I'm saying is we see the Sepratists and Hutts as bad guys because they are in opposition to the heroes but in terms of actual good and evil were the Seperatists really a worse regime than the Republic policy wise? We think so as viewers because we know the whole civil war was orchestrated by the Sith but to your average citizen there were a myriad of valid reasons why the Sepratists were worth allying with. And its the same with the Hutts, we're told by Qui Gon and Obi Wan that the Hutts are a bunch of gangsters who control the sector but by the same token they are the legitimate governing body there and the average people there don't seem to mind so does working for them really make you evil? It just depends where your certain point of view lands.
    I don't think you can really apply moral relativity to alignment charts. Everyone is the hero of their own story. Like, the Hutts may be the lawful governing body of Tatooine (are they?) but Jabba feeds people to his pet monster if they don't do exactly as he wants. He disintegrates droids for fun. He runs a major smuggling ring across the Outer Rim, freezes people who don't do their job to his satisfaction.....if he is the lawful authority on Tatooine he supports and allows slavery. The cities are wretched hives of scum and villainy, the small towns half feral, forced to largely fend for themselves against the environment, sand people, etc. The citizens aren't happy, they're beaten down. There's really no ethical or moral axis where the Hutts *aren't* evil, except for their own creed which claims greed, murder, and violence are virtues and not vices.

    And the Separatists did have some valid concerns and problems with the Republic, which had grown fat, corrupt, and inept. But the planets we see under Separatist rule are plundered for their resources and exploited in every way possible, usually more so than what the Republic was doing. The people aren't free, and don't seem any better off. There may well be planets that did benefit from leaving the Republic but if so, they're portrayed as being a small minority (usually the homeworld of a Separatist leader).

    If the Sith hadn't been involved in the Separatist movement? Things might've been different. But really, the whole galaxy was screwed either way, the Sith pulled the strings from both ends.

    Anyway, I think Din is lawful neutral. At least at first. He follows a code he refuses to break, even under threat of his life (lawful doesn't have to mean following the laws of the land, a personal creed is lawful too). He takes any job that pays, whether it's legal (the bail jumpers) or not (the Imperial gig). And I get the feeling that his particular sect of Mandos are all very much alike in that; they're a lawful neutral tribe.

    I think now Din's lost much of the "lawful" element and is straight neutral. He breaks his code when he feels like he has to, and basically does whatever he thinks is necessary. He's not setting things on fire just for fun (chaotic) but he's not inflexible in his actions either (lawful). I think he's still neutral on the secondary axis though; he'll do anything and sacrifice everything for Grogu, but just because he's that way with a loved one doesn't mean he's that way with everybody. He's still a cold blooded, ruthless son of a bitch with everybody outside his little, makeshift family. Virtually every person Din has helped, he's helped as a side effect of helping Grogu. Saved a village? Only because he and the Child need a place to hide. Helped defeat an Imperial remnant? Only because he was protecting the Child. Those are good things to do, but Din didn't do them from a place of civic mindfulness and the good deed was largely incidental.

    And that's a pretty common thread in this kind of "wandering cowboy" archetype.
    Last edited by Ascended; 12-07-2021 at 06:39 PM.
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