Worf vs Khan

[shades of eternity]

Worf gets a new car with fine corythian leather. 8-)

[Hiromi]

I do recall disarming Khan someone and crumpling their phaser with his bare hands in the original series.

eyeeeeeaaahhhhh unfortunately anything flattering to Khan basically ends there. He makes a claim of being 5 times stronger than a normal person(which if true puts him at over twice as strong as a Vulcan who typically range around twice as strong as a human), and he does kinda toss Kirk around a couple times plus the lifting Chekov in ST2... buuuuut he also looks incredibly clumsy and slow as Kirk does his normal Kirk hth shenanigans on him and he eventually knocks him out by hitting him on the back with a pipe a couple times

[Powerboy]

eyeeeeeaaahhhhh unfortunately anything flattering to Khan basically ends there. He makes a claim of being 5 times stronger than a normal person(which if true puts him at over twice as strong as a Vulcan who typically range around twice as strong as a human), and he does kinda toss Kirk around a couple times plus the lifting Chekov in ST2... buuuuut he also looks incredibly clumsy and slow as Kirk does his normal Kirk hth shenanigans on him and he eventually knocks him out by hitting him on the back with a pipe a couple times

Yeah, having Ricardo Montalban partly do his own fight scene here was a mistake. Montalban was born with a painful spinal deformity which was worsened by being thrown from a horse and landing on his spine. Note that, in most of his appearances, he is sitting down or leaning against something. It was painful for him to even stand up and he was always in pain.

But we are stuck to some degree with what we saw on-screen, a Khan who was clumsy and limping, but that he's clearly beating Kirk in a fight until Kirk hits him with that little plastic thing that seems to have been in computers just to pull out and hit people with and was supposed to be as good as a club.

But most TOS fights involve some serious unrealities. Not to say NG fights don't. Unarmed, I'd give it to Khan.

Note: While both versions of Khan are supposed to have the same abilities, they clearly do not. Cumberbatch Khan goes CGI crazy and has a super healing factor that original Khan does not else he'd have been healing before our eyes at the end of Wrath of Khan.

[Sharpandpointies]

Laced-finger, double-fisted blows. My eyes!

Also...Khan, man, you grab a phaser from him then destroy it. Just shoot him. Ugh.

[Powerboy]

Laced-finger, double-fisted blows. My eyes!

Also...Khan, man, you grab a phaser from him then destroy it. Just shoot him. Ugh.

Well, that last part I can justify on the grounds that Khan was absolutely sure Kirk had zero chance against him without a phaser and has an arrogant need to prove his superiority. But the rest of it, no.

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, that last part I can justify on the grounds that Khan was absolutely sure Kirk had zero chance against him without a phaser and has an arrogant need to prove his superiority. But the rest of it, no.

To me, that's weakness. ^_^ Someone who is sure in their own superiority doesn't need to prove it. Khan seems to have lots of ego, zero self-confidence.

If he was confident in his superiority, he likely would have gone with 'Well, weird stuff happens, so it's probably better not to take the 1% chance to feed my ego and just zap him. After all, I have nothing I need to prove.'

It fits the character, sure. It's still 'ugh', if you get my meaning.

Edit: Granted, I'm of the 'If I am forced into a serious situation, I will totally run them over with my car' crowd wrt 'fair' fights, so I may be a touch biased.

[Captain Smith]

Laced-finger, double-fisted blows. My eyes!

Also...Khan, man, you grab a phaser from him then destroy it. Just shoot him. Ugh.

That is a technique that is a Shatner trade mark. There was an old TV show, the Defenders. IIRC, Bill played an ex-SOF guy. He was accosted by a bully and flipped out and killed him. His defense was that the Army made him a killing automaton. Then in court, the guy's brother attacked him and he flipped again and double fisted said brother. That was evidence for his defense!

[Sharpandpointies]

That is a technique that is a Shatner trade mark. There was an old TV show, the Defenders. IIRC, Bill played an ex-SOF guy. He was accosted by a bully and flipped out and killed him. His defense was that the Army made him a killing automaton. Then in court, the guy's brother attacked him and he flipped again and double fisted said brother. That was evidence for his defense!

Cool. I mean, the information. ^_^

That laced-fist, double-fisted hit...maaaaan, thanks I think to Star Trek, it STILL shows up (like the nosebone-punch thanks to the Osterman Weekend, I suspect).

[Powerboy]

To me, that's weakness. ^_^ Someone who is sure in their own superiority doesn't need to prove it. Khan seems to have lots of ego, zero self-confidence.

If he was confident in his superiority, he likely would have gone with 'Well, weird stuff happens, so it's probably better not to take the 1% chance to feed my ego and just zap him. After all, I have nothing I need to prove.'

It fits the character, sure. It's still 'ugh', if you get my meaning.

Edit: Granted, I'm of the 'If I am forced into a serious situation, I will totally run them over with my car' crowd wrt 'fair' fights, so I may be a touch biased.

That's a valid point. A friend of Andre the Giant was once asked how strong he was and the response was, "So strong he felt no need whatsoever to prove how strong he was".

Yes, Khan has tons of ego and tons of insecurity, hence the need to prove it. The whole reason he lost in "Wrath" was Kirk playing on his ego.

[Powerboy]

Cool. I mean, the information. ^_^

That laced-fist, double-fisted hit...maaaaan, thanks I think to Star Trek, it STILL shows up (like the nosebone-punch thanks to the Osterman Weekend, I suspect).

That nosebone thing definitely still shows up. It's amazing how many people believe that.

[Sharpandpointies]

That nosebone thing definitely still shows up. It's amazing how many people believe that.

It has been perpetuated by a whole lot of writers, movies/TV shows, martial art schools, self-defense courses/books, etc, etc.

As for the laced-double-fists, I've actually seen those in comic books as recently as pre-Nu Birds of Prey, which is a book about a bunch of martial arts people (and thus really should have better people researching this stuff). I'm not really reading a lot of comics these days, but I'm willing to bet it has shown up even more recently (comic book artists seem to go for that move, I have no idea why).

*le sigh* ^_^

[Nik Hasta]

Laced-finger, double-fisted blows. My eyes!

Also...Khan, man, you grab a phaser from him then destroy it. Just shoot him. Ugh.

Very amusingly parodied in the Lower Decks though.



Yelling "Interlocked Hands" as a prelude to a finishing move really made me laugh.

[MoneySpider]

I think that pipe-thingie Kirk used in "Space Seed" would beat the brakes off of both Montalban Khan AND Worf.

Winner: The Pipe-thingie

[Hiromi]

I remember a RiffTrax(mst3k guys)video I watched a while ago, think it was Guy From Harlem, one of the riffs was during a fight scene and went something along the lines of “choreography by two kids messing around in their grandparents basement,” and I’ve always thought that accurately summed up TOS hth Kirk fights

[Sharkerbob]

I mean, you hit someone in the nose hard enough, some bones're gunna break off the skull and hit the brain.